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Posts:
1,623
From:
Utica, IL
Registered:
5/5/08
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(46 of 52)
Re: What German concetration camp was the worst.
Sep 2, 2008 9:16 AM
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It's easy to judge as a monday morning quarterback. I'd like to see you scale Point Du Hoc under fire with a full combat load. The war in Europe was not over until May 1945. The Soviets would have lost by 1943 without lend lease. Stalin couldn't make enough powder to load small arms amunition. It is not bravery to charge machine guns with one man in five having a rifle and the NKVD watching with submachine guns to shoot anyone who doesn't advance; it's criminal leadership and a waste of good men.
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Posts:
6,921
From:
Billings MT.
Registered:
2/11/03
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(47 of 52)
delete this too "red army"...
Sep 2, 2008 9:55 AM
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There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school.
And there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school.
The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit any truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is the one that is right! Go figure.
Here are a few illustrative estimates from the "Big Numbers" school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
And from the "Lower Numbers" school:
Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
As anyone can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools of thought. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings/deaths off of the military deaths/casualties of the war itself, but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian (Cambodia) level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M executed during and after WW2.
Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
Daniel Chirot:
"Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
"Highest": 40M
Citing:
Conquest: 20M
Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
Medvedev: 40M
Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
AVERAGE: Of the 15 separate estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
Famine, 1926-38
Green, Barbara Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" i
In Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
Conquest:
Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
1932-33: 7M
Ukraine: 5M
No matter if one is pro or anti-Stalin, the numbers of dead remain, the total may be in dispute but the fact they died isn't. Hell's bells, Vidkun Quisling's plaster icons were found in Ukranian peasant hovels when the Nazis over-ran them. Simply because he was a member of the League of Nations team that came into the area and distributed foodstuffs and medicines. Stalin was trying to NOT look like the monster he turned out to be, so he allowed the League relief into the area.
Stalin was also making a concerted effort to get the USSR recognized as a "legitimate" government by the rest of the world at the time. Stalin was a realist, not a "saint" nor the devil incarnate. He was who he was, and his vision of world communism was always on the front burner, those who suffered or lost their lives to further his agenda were of no consequence.
--
Happy Trails,
Clint
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Posts:
794
Registered:
6/30/08
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(48 of 52)
Re: What German concetration camp was the worst.
Sep 6, 2008 1:00 PM
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Just when I start to have a bit of sympathy with Russia Red Army has to crawl out of his hole and ruin it.Oh well once again:there was no 26 million civilians killed by the Germans in Russia,that is a total fabrication.The recent (gu-)estimate of 26 million deaths includes military deaths of 10-12 million,plus several million who died in areas controlled by Stalin.And the earlier longstanding (gu-)estimate was 20 million total,including military.And Stalin himself said 5 or 10 million,total,so "how you not know" that is the correct figure,if you think he is so great?
As for Stalin himself,he was directly responsible for at least 10 million dead Soviets,maybe 20,plus he helped Hitler start the war,attacking and partitioning Poland with him,which Hitler could not do otherwise,and giving Hitler vital supplies,and diplomatic support,and a start line along the Soviet border,so Stalin is also half responsible for the war dead generally,especially the Soviet dead,who he put in Hitler's reach,and sacrificed with bad strategy and military blunders,which he blamed on others.And also there are the Korean war dead,and the victims of Kim and Mao,who he also has a good share in,as he helped them to power,and armed them.
Yeah,what a great guy.
And by the way,a Georgian.Just the hero for Russians today!
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Posts:
1,507
From:
southern bc
Registered:
11/12/07
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(49 of 52)
Re: What German concetration camp was the worst.
Sep 6, 2008 2:51 PM
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I guess if what one was the worst, the question begs to be asked.
What concentration camp was the best?
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Posts:
52
Registered:
8/6/08
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(50 of 52)
Re: What German concetration camp was the worst.
Sep 6, 2008 5:43 PM
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Hi
I had read (sorry, no source) that of the 55 million dead (Military and Civilian) due to WWII, 27 Million were Russian.
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Posts:
393
From:
calif
Registered:
3/8/07
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(51 of 52)
Re: What German concetration camp was the worst.
Sep 6, 2008 6:09 PM
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The entire country of Germany and its occupied satellies were "concentration camps".
-- Aaron (aaronwilson@pacbell.net)
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Posts:
709
Registered:
2/17/08
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(52 of 52)
Re: What German concetration camp was the worst.
Sep 7, 2008 9:06 AM
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ust when I start to have a bit of sympathy with Russia Red Army has to crawl out of his hole and ruin it.Oh well once again:there was no 26 million civilians killed by the Germans in Russia,that is a total fabrication.The recent (gu-)estimate of 26 million deaths includes military deaths of 10-12 million,plus several million who died in areas controlled by Stalin.And the earlier longstanding (gu-)estimate was 20 million total,including military.And Stalin himself said 5 or 10 million,total,so "how you not know" that is the correct figure,if you think he is so great?
As for Stalin himself,he was directly responsible for at least 10 million dead Soviets,maybe 20,plus he helped Hitler start the war,attacking and partitioning Poland with him,which Hitler could not do otherwise,and giving Hitler vital supplies,and diplomatic support,and a start line along the Soviet border,so Stalin is also half responsible for the war dead generally,especially the Soviet dead,who he put in Hitler's reach,and sacrificed with bad strategy and military blunders,which he blamed on others.
Yeah,what a great guy.
And by the way,a Georgian.Just the hero for Russians today!
Stalin helped Hitler to stat war you must be stupid as always. Hitler took Austria, Chehoslovakia and build whole army under westerns noses. by Versalie treaties Germany couldn't have tanks, planes, submarines and so on. War with Western countries started not because of Poland. It started because West couldn't lost their face and allowing Germans. You always put your pro Hitler propaganda here, Stalin was bad. If wasn't him Soviets would lose long time ago. Indistralizing USSR in 1930 what saved western asses during ww 2. If USSR was as Russia Impire they would surrendered long time ago.
USSR wasn't Germany where good blood Germans could be first one. USSR was multi national country where even Georgian could be first.
Joseph Stalin bore the greatest responsibility for the disasters at the beginning of the war, but can be equally praised for the subsequent success of the Soviet Army, which would have been impossible without the unprecedentedly rapid industrialization of the Soviet Union, which was the first priority of Stalin's internal policy throughout the 1930s.
Stalin's Great Purge of the Red Army in the late 1930s consisted of the legal prosecution of many of the senior command, many of whom were convicted and sentenced to death or imprisonment. The executed included Mikhail Tukhachevsky, the brilliant proponent of armoured blitzkrieg. Stalin promoted some obscurantists like Grigory Kulik (who opposed the mechanization of the army and the production of tanks), but on the other hand the purge of the older commanders who had had their positions since the Russian Civil War, and had experience, but were deemed ?politically unreliable?. This opened up those places to the promotion of many younger officers that Stalin and the NKVD thought were in line with Stalinist politics, many of whom proved to be terribly inexperienced, but some were later very successful. Soviet tank output remained the largest in the world. Distrust of the military led, since the foundation of the Red Army in 1918, to a system of "dual command", in which every commander was paired with a political commissar, a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Larger units had military councils consisting of the commander, commissar and chief of staff, who ensured that the commanding officer was loyal and implemented Party orders.
Following the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Bessarabia in 1939?40, Stalin insisted that every fold of the new territories should be occupied; this move westward left troops far from their depots in salients that left them vulnerable to encirclement. There was an assumption that, in the event of a German invasion, the Red Army would take the strategic offensive and fight the war mostly outside the borders of the Soviet Union; thus few plans were made for strategic defensive operations. However, fortifications were built. As tension heightened in spring 1941, Stalin was desperate not to give Hitler any provocation that could be used as an excuse for an attack; this caused him to refuse to allow the military to go onto the alert even as German troops gathered on the borders and German reconnaissance planes overflew installations. This refusal to take the necessary action was instrumental in the destruction of major portions of the Red Air Force, lined up on its airfields, in the first days of the war.
Stalin's insistence on repeated counterattacks without adequate preparation led to the loss of almost the whole of the Red Army's tank corps in 1941 ? many tanks simply ran out of fuel on their way to the battlefield through faulty planning or ignorance of the location of fuel dumps. While some regard this offensive strategy as an argument for Soviet aggressive strategic plans, the offensive operational planning was not, by itself, evidence of any aggressive foreign policy intent.
Unlike Hitler, Stalin was able to learn lessons and improve his conduct of the war. He gradually came to realise the dangers of inadequate preparation and built up a competent command and control organization ? the Stavka ? under Semyon Timoshenko, Georgy Zhukov and others. Incompetent commanders were gradually but ruthlessly weeded out.
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