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VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 27, 2008 3:14 PM
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further Jan, to our discussion recently about JU-88'S being shot down over Scotland in World War Two you may be interested to learn the following further facts.
A-The firs Luftwaffe bomber to be shot down over Scottish/British territory in WW2 by an American Lend-Lease fighter plane was a JU-88 wose crew had a very unhappy Christmas as they were forced to land as a result of damagE INFLICTED BY A GRUMMAN ''MARTLET'' -the British name for the fighter plane flown by US Marine flyers over Wake Island in 1941-was it the F-4?-i'VE FORGOTTEN its Am erican designation.
This was on Christmas Day 1940 -December 25 1940 and the JU-88 landed on the Orkney Isles farm at Skaebrae owned -ironically by a retired Merchant Navy Captain called Harcus who had been a POW in Germany in WW One.!
The JU-88 was virtually intact when it landed at Skaebrae, Orkney.
On 17 October 1939 another JU-88 raiding Okney became the first Luftwaffe bomber shot down by antiaircradft fire over British territory in WW Two.
Thec JU-88 fell onto Oe Farm in the Orkney island of Hoy but it did manage to bomb , hole and beach HMS IRON DUKE..
Also, on March 16 1940 Orkney man, James Isbister, became the first British civilian casualty of a Luftwaffe air raid in World War Two when bombs fell on his farm at Steness, Orkney..
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 28, 2008 3:38 AM
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hey thanks Toom,
interesting tidbits. The Martlet was called the Wildcat by US pilots I believe.
I'm trying to see in the Squadron histories available by osprey, if they have a picture of the Ju-88 S that was shot down. A good aircraft to model as it had a brief moment of historical significance...
--
regards
Jan
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 28, 2008 7:02 PM
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Thanks Jan -I'd forgotten it was the ''Wildcat' which was eventually replaced by the F-6. ''Hellcat''.
Mind you. Jan the ''Wildcat'' had a similar radial engine and short stubby wings and barrel like fuselage like the much maligned Brewster Buffalo which-as you always pioint out , did better in the 1940 Finnish/Soviet air war than it did in Malaya in 1941 against the Japanese.. I also forgot to tell you that the very first US, Navy aircraft to be deployed in the ETO in WW2 -VINDICATORS FROM the USS carrier ''Wasp'' worked up to combat readiness for six weeks in Orkney in early 1942 before deploying to the Mediteranean '.
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 29, 2008 1:43 PM
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A-The firs Luftwaffe bomber to be shot down over
> Scottish/British territory in WW2 by an American
> Lend-Lease fighter plane was a JU-88 wose crew had a
> very unhappy Christmas as they were forced to land as
> a result of damagE INFLICTED BY A GRUMMAN ''MARTLET''
> -the British name for the fighter plane flown by US
> Marine flyers over Wake Island in 1941-was it the
> F-4?-i'VE FORGOTTEN its Am erican designation.
> This was on Christmas Day 1940 -December 25 1940
The Lend-Lease bill wasn't signed until May 1941, before that date all US built aircraft were bought in hard cash.
The first American built aircraft to shoot down a Luftwaffe aircraft while in British service was an RAF Lockheed Hudson which shot down a Do-17 floatplane on the 8th October 1939 over the North Sea
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If in doubt..... Panic !!!!!
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Vindicators from the Wasp....
Sep 29, 2008 2:56 PM
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In fact, the Vindicators were flown off the Wasp and remained in the UK while the Wasp made two trips to Malta to deliver Spitfires and were never committed to combat, being replaced by SBD Dauntlesses upon return to the USA. Unfortunately, the Spits that landed at Malta took a beating from the Luftwaffe. The Wasp retained its F-4F Wildcats to fly CAP (Combat Air Patrol) while the Spitfires flew off to Malta. One Spit that lost its drop tank made an emergency landing back aboard the Wasp, stopping just short of the end of the flight deck.
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Re: Vindicators from the Wasp....
Sep 29, 2008 3:32 PM
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> In fact, the Vindicators were flown off the Wasp and
> remained in the UK while the Wasp made two trips to
> Malta to deliver Spitfires and were never committed
> to combat, being replaced by SBD Dauntlesses upon
> return to the USA. Unfortunately, the Spits that
> landed at Malta took a beating from the Luftwaffe.
> The Wasp retained its F-4F Wildcats to fly CAP
> P (Combat Air Patrol) while the Spitfires flew off to
> Malta. One Spit that lost its drop tank made an
> emergency landing back aboard the Wasp, stopping just
> short of the end of the flight deck.
Vindicators from USS Ranger did see action in the Atlantic, though. The SB2U was used,if only very sparingly, in the African theater; Ranger made two trips in May and July 1942 ferrying P-40s to West Africa, and SB2Us flew patrols from Ranger during the trips.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 29, 2008 3:34 PM
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Hi Jan:
Are you looking for info on the Ju 88A-1s flown by KG I/30 in 1939? I can check my references, if you like.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
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(8 of 16)
Sep 29, 2008 3:36 PM
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I thought I was being specific that these were the Vindicators from VMS-21 and 22 from the Wasp, but I can see that my wording could have been better.
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Sep 29, 2008 3:54 PM
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> I thought I was being specific that these were the
> Vindicators from VMS-21 and 22 from the Wasp, but I
> can see that my wording could have been better.
Yes, you were clear, but I just thought that the fact that the Vindicator was used at all in the Atlantic by the USN was an interesting tidbit worth sharing.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 29, 2008 7:05 PM
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Thanks Redcoat for the corection so i'll amnd my statement the first German bomber shot down over British territory BY AN AMERICAN BUILT FIGHTERwas the Xmas Day 1940 JU-88 which was shot down by a an American built Grumman Martlet piloted by a Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm pilot-also when since did the Lockheed Hudson become a fighter plane?-so my statement still stands that the first American built FIGHTER to shoot down a German bomber on British soil was the Xmas Day 1940 Orkney Martlet.
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according to the USAF Museum...
Sep 30, 2008 6:22 AM
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... one of the JU88's roles was as pilotless missile; I wonder if this development took place before or after the history-making incidents posted here -- SSD
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 30, 2008 11:09 AM
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Hi Robert,
I would love any and all info, especially pictorial, concerning the first Ju-88 shot down over British territory. I think I would like to have that aircraft in miniature in my collection...
on another note, Cajus Bekker's execellent "War Diary of the Luftwaffe 1939-1945" tells me that half of the 40 Spitfire Mk Vs delivered by the Wasp were destroyed within 24 hours, and the rest knocked out by week's end. They came in at the wrong time, right before a heavy bombing raid on their airfield apparently.
--
regards
Jan
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 30, 2008 6:32 PM
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And Von Greim, Orkney, also had some Sea Gladiator fighter biplanes deployed at Hatton airfield in Orkney in 1939-40 but I have no record of them actually engaging German aircraft like the three Galadiators ''Faith Hope and Charity''did by engaging Axis aircraft over Malta in 1940-40.
Do you Jan -or Robert- know if Gladiators ever engaged Italian fellow biplane fighters -the CR42-in actual combat and, if so what was the resultt?.
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Sep 30, 2008 6:38 PM
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According to the excellent account "Malta The Thorn in Rommel's Side Six Months That Turned The War" by Laddie Lucas,47 Spits flew off the decks,46 made it through,and only 7 aircraft remained serviceable on the ground 48 hours later-"Malta's nadir" he terms it.
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Re: VON GREIM -SOME FURTHER JU-88 FACTS.
Oct 1, 2008 12:53 AM
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> And Von Greim, Orkney, also had some Sea Gladiator
> fighter biplanes deployed at Hatton airfield in
> Orkney in 1939-40 but I have no record of them
> actually engaging German aircraft like the three
> Galadiators ''Faith Hope and Charity''did by engaging
> Axis aircraft over Malta in 1940-40.
> Do you Jan -or Robert- know if Gladiators ever
> engaged Italian fellow biplane fighters -the CR42-in
> actual combat and, if so what was the resultt?.
804 NAS, based at Hatston in the Orkneys, egaged German aircraft with their Gladiators several times in 1940, according to Andrew Thomas's Gloster Gladiator Aces. The units first kill was on April 10, 1940, when Lt. Cdr. J.C. Cockburn was credited with destroying an enemy bomber that was 'last seen in a flat right hand spiral going down towards South Ronaldsay."
There was also a section of 151 Squadron, RAF, that moved to Sumburgh in the Shetlands in November 1939. These Gladiators saw sporadic combat, and were credited with at least one kill and one probable for Flg Off "Jock" Gillen, one Ju 88 probable on April 18, 1940, and a confirmed Do 17 on June 5.
Gladiators and CR.42s met each other on many occasions over North Africa and a few over Malta. I don't have exact figures, but my sense is that they were pretty evenly matched, and that both sides enjoyed successes and losses against the other.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
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