|
Posts:
1,438
Registered:
7/17/00
|
|
(31 of 48)
Re: Optimization? I don't think it would have worked
Jul 1, 2009 1:11 PM
|
Yes Brian, Antony Beevor was an officer in the 11th Hussars, but after my time. No doubt by his accent he went to Eton. The last time I saw him on TV he was wearing the regimental tie which is similar to the MCC's.
It's Robert Emmet alright.
|
|
|
Posts:
859
Registered:
2/25/04
|
|
(32 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 1, 2009 5:30 PM
|
Phillip, I never thought i would hear a British person say " Robert Emmet is sadly missed".
Indeed, the European forum is deathly dull since Emmet left. The duels between Bob and Mick3 were by far the most entertaining posts on the entire site. You had a good few yourself including the inimitable "Where's Angus" post. Just thinking about that particular offering makes me laugh.
Speaking of Mick3 - do you know if he has passed on? He was, of course, quite elderly and hasn't posted for a while. The forums are that much duller without his forthright opinions.
But don't worry old boy, 'buckskin'? is Paddy Emmet.
Both were/are stupid, but at least Emmet was literate and entertaining whereas Buckskins is a just a bore.
|
|
|
Posts:
888
From:
South Texas, where the snow never falls.
Registered:
1/12/09
|
|
(33 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 2, 2009 10:42 AM
|
Pillow ,
Can we both agree that the Luftwaffa should have been given carte blanche to flatten El Paso without fear of reprisal?
|
|
|
Posts:
1,803
Registered:
10/30/07
|
|
(34 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 2, 2009 10:47 AM
|
|
But that's where their air defence school is.
|
|
|
Posts:
555
Registered:
4/19/09
|
|
(35 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 2, 2009 2:37 PM
|
buckskinz28,
I fealt that way at one point in my life, Old hatreds die hard.
I'm over it, they are human beings born into circumstances beyond their control, most try to better themselves. Most are hard working, honest people.
We could have used some of them on Omaha Beach or other areas, Vietnam comes to mind.
|
|
|
Posts:
1,438
Registered:
7/17/00
|
|
(36 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 3, 2009 5:36 AM
|
I don't know if old Mick is still knocking about or not, I do hope so.
Paddy is still alive and up to his old tricks though.
|
|
|
Posts:
888
From:
South Texas, where the snow never falls.
Registered:
1/12/09
|
|
(37 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 4, 2009 7:15 AM
|
Greetings Pillow,
You misunderstood me amigo. Down here in South Texas if someone messes up you can say to them, “Do that again and you will be banished to El Paso” It’s just a silly saying. We don’t have racial problems down here. My ranch hands are all Latinos and I would be in trouble without them. I presumed you were familiar with the phrase.
Bye for now,
Matt
|
|
|
Posts:
555
Registered:
4/19/09
|
|
(38 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 4, 2009 7:35 AM
|
buckskinz28,
I did misunderstand. Here in SE TX we would probably point them in the direction of Pasadena or Vidor.
ps. If you need anyone to thin out your hog or coyote population I stand ready. I'd like to see what my Garand would do to a hog.
|
|
|
Posts:
888
From:
South Texas, where the snow never falls.
Registered:
1/12/09
|
|
(39 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 5, 2009 12:40 PM
|
Pillow, you are a man after my own heart. I have every military bolt action rifle and carbine ever issued since WW1. To include every model of every country in the old Warsaw Pact. My hog problem comes and goes in cycles. I do better pen trapping them. Coyotes are never much of a problem, and I do like to hear them at night. Deer and Coons are my biggest pain. I have loads of Dove and Quail but I don’t hunt them. They’re just too darn cute.
Cheers, Matt.
|
|
|
Posts:
555
Registered:
4/19/09
|
|
(40 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 5, 2009 1:19 PM
|
> I have every military bolt action rifle and carbine ever
> issued since WW1.
buckskinz28,
My military collection is limited solely to the Garand. Does your collection include a Walther produced G43 ? Someday I will obtain one and make a side by side comparison with the M1.
|
|
|
Posts:
2,374
Registered:
5/17/03
|
|
(41 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 5, 2009 6:04 PM
|
I do not think it is Emmet but he is very similar. Although both like to record deeds of Brits massacring innocents, Emmet had no specified interest in military affairs - buckskins seems to post solely on the world war two board so I assume he must have an interest in it once no matter how blinkered. Besides, where is the Ireland in the posts? the Celtic poetry and eulogies of IRA freedom-fighters etc?
It is interesting what happened to Emmet but those bomb devices can be quite temperamental.
|
|
|
Posts:
594
Registered:
2/3/05
|
|
(42 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 6, 2009 9:01 AM
|
> No, H2X was not that precise. You can see that from
> the accuracy achieved.
>
> Sorry, but you are incorrect. In the short range
> tracking mode used during the bombing run, those were
> exactly the features that were looked for on
> the scope. To quote from the "Radar Observer's
> Bombardment Information File":
>
> It is not enough to recognize the target and its
> approaches. Often the scope picture is good enough
> in close-up to indicate details, such as bridges,
> relatively small water areas, docks, seawalls, broad
> airport runways, and similar objects. These may be
> used for more precise positioning. When they occur
> within the target you may use them as aiming points.
>
> The brightest radar returns from such targets as
> large industrial buildings, railroad marshaling yard,
> and city streets are obtained by an approach at right
> angles.
>
> There were numerous variables in the H2X bombing
> procedure that limited the ultimate accuracy of bomb
> impact, but marshalling yards could definitely be
> seen on the scope.
Sometimes. Some targets showed up well, others badly. But the Germans confused the picture with countermeasures like laying flat steel sheet on the ground.
But the overall accuracy of H2X bombing was poor. According to USAAF reports there was a systemic 0.53 mile shortfall in bombing with H2X. A USAAF study on accuracy 1 September - 31 December 1944 gave the figures for accuracy using H2X through 10/10ths cloud as:
Percentage bombs within 1,000 ft - 0.2%
Within 0.5 miles - 1.2%
Within 1 mile - 5.6%
Within 3 miles - 39.8%
Within 5 miles - 58.5%
35% of all 8th AF tonnage during that period was dropped using H2X through 10/10ths cloud.
> On the other hand, in longer scale ranges in the
> search mode used in navigation, smaller towns would
> show up only as a bright dot on the screen - hardly
> "large enough to produce and identifiable return".
> The assertion that any town with "a road bridge" or
> r "a railway line" subject to attack is a bit of a
> stretch in practical terms.
Those were the USAAF instructions to their crews.
> There were very different rules put in place for
> bombing against Germany and occupied territories.
>
>
> Okay, let's be specific...
USAAF instructions from March 1944 for instrument bombing over enemy territory (Germany, Austria, Hungary, Sudetenland):
(1) Military objectives will be assigned for attack so as to best fulfil the objectives outlined in current directives as amplified by priority target lists.
(2) If attack of the assigned targets is not practicable, military objectives may be attacked as targets of opportunity by instrument bombing technique. These attacks will be made against military objectives outlined under the current bombing directive.
We've already seen that "military objectives" include any town with a road or rail bridge.
Using instrument bombing over occupied territory (France etc):
(1) Military objectives will be assigned for attack when their military importance is so great that the risk of causing civilian casualties by bombing with normal accuracy is warranted.
(2) The attack of targets of opportunity is prohibited, and crews will be briefed to insure that no such attacks are made.
There is a clear recognition of the difference there.
> 16%? that's actually pretty high, especially as it
> includes the Med region. Bomber Command dropped about
> 190,000 tons of incendiaries, which is about 20% of
> their total.
>
>
> The 16% number come from the table of number
> of bombs. Since you quoted tonage, the AAF
> percentage of incendiaries by weight was just under
> 8%.
About a third of the USAAF tonnage was dropped by fighters and tactical bombers, and incendiary use was much less common. The 15th AF also used far less incendiaries. Davis says that on attacks on cities the 15th used 4% incendiaries compared to 36% for the 8th.
> And I find Davis' characterization of a visual
> attack on a marshalling yard as "area-like" dubious
> at best.
If they're loaded down with incendiaries then I think it's fair enough. Incendiaries were not that suitable for damaging railway lines.
> Incendiaries were almost never used against oil
> targets, by either the USAAF or RAF.
>
>
> Of the two missions that I can find where my bomb
> group of interest loaded incendiaries, one was to
> Ploesti, and the other was the Obertraubling Aircraft
> Factory at Regensburg during "Big Week".
Apart from the oil at Ploesti, the USAAF also area bombed the city numerous times. From Davis:
The noticeably high number of city attacks on Rumania—12
on Ploesti and four on Bucharest—have a simple explanation.
Aircraft assigned to destroy the refinery complexes at Ploesti had a secondary target, Ploesti itself, if their primary target was cloud or smoke covered.
Why incendiaries were not used on a large scale against oil refineries is another question, but I haven't seen any dispute about the fact that they weren't. The USSBS oil division report:
Very few instances of appreciable production loss were caused by the small number of incendiaries used against German oil producing targets (only 6,541 tons out of a total of 196,052 tons). In most instances, incendiaries burned themselves out or were extinguished before spilled oil or other inflammable material had time to spread and become the focal point of a serious fire. It was the opinion of German plant managers, concurred in by all Oil Division observers, that incendiaries dropped after or set to ignite severl minutes following high-explosive attacks would have resulted in far more serious fire damage.
Remember a significant proportion of those 6,541 tons would have been RAF markers.
And I don't think you should read too much in to a 15th AF bomb group's experiences. The 15th had better weather and so used H2X far less. They used far less incendiaries and carried out far fewer area attacks.
Can I suggest you look at the records for the 303rd bomb group:
http://www.303rdbg.com/missions.html
|
|
|
Posts:
888
From:
South Texas, where the snow never falls.
Registered:
1/12/09
|
|
(43 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 7, 2009 11:23 AM
|
Hi Pillow,
I don’t have a G43. My military semi weapons are limited to a couple of M1’s, Half dozen SKS’s, and a Dragunov. If you don’t have an SKS I would get one. They are dirt cheap and loads of fun.
|
|
|
Posts:
1,166
Registered:
9/10/99
|
|
(44 of 48)
Jul 13, 2009 2:38 AM
|
Toom, I don’t know if anyone actually addressed your post about US D-Day bombing accuracy?
The 8th AF was assigned strikes on shore defenses of Omaha Beach and the British & Canadian Beaches and the approaches to Caen. Because of the weather H2X pathfinders led the way flying in to the beaches at right angles in formations of 6 squadrons abreast, the pathfinder bombardiers were allowed up to a 30 second delay after the release point showed up on their scopes to prevent short drops.
Utah Beach on the other hand had been assigned to the mediums of the 9th AF, permission was sought and granted to bomb visually from below the overcast i.e. 3,500-7,000 ft., rather than having to divert some of the 8th AF aircraft from their assigned drops.
It was later determined that on Utah some 43% of the bombs fell within 100 yards of their targets, while 35 % fell short i.e. in the water or tidal zone. On the other hand, on the other Beaches, where the 8th AF had used “caution” in bombing by instrument, the bombing concentrations were between a few hundred yards to 3 miles inland, where they still contributed by detonating mine fields and played havoc with German morale etc.
|
|
|
Posts:
876
Registered:
12/20/00
|
|
(45 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jul 13, 2009 9:21 AM
|
About a third of the USAAF tonnage was dropped by fighters and tactical bombers, and incendiary use was much less common. The 15th AF also used far less incendiaries. Davis says that on attacks on cities the 15th used 4% incendiaries compared to 36% for the 8th.
The heavies dropped 74% of the tonage in Europe, but that's a moot point as the figures I used were for heavies only - no medium of fighter tonage included.
If they're loaded down with incendiaries then I think it's fair enough. Incendiaries were not that suitable for damaging railway lines.
The primary objective in attacking marshalling yards is not to destroy railroad track - that can be quickly repaired. The primary objective is to destroy the rolling stock and the supplies contained therein; the associated warehouse facilities and the supplies contained within; and the repair facilities of the yard.
--
Illegitimis non carborundum, "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell
|
|
|
|
|
