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(1 of 48)
SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 21, 2009 4:05 PM
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JUST RECIEIVED ANTONY BEEVOR'S NEW BOOK ON ''D-DAY'' AND THE LANDINGS.for ''FATHER'S DAY.
Beevor recountsTHAT U.S. 8th AIR FORCE B-17'S AND LIBERATORS dropped thousands of pounds of bombs on ''OMAHA'' beach -only they didn't!- they missed it entirely. So much for those American ''daylight precision bombing'' theorists and their Norden bombsight putting bombs in a pickle barrel tosh-they couldn't even hit a wide expanse of a French beach in Normandy in broad daylight -how does this square with ''PRECISION DAYLIGHT BOMBING???.and the Norden bombsight ''pickle barrel'' theory?.
What's even worse is that the GI 'S on the beachead picked up the butchers bill for this bomb aiming ineptitude.as they had no craters to hide in from the murderous machine gun fire on Omaha.
Beevor also dismisses the Bedford Boys myth on Omaha beach showing that only a handful of the casualties at Omaha were from Bedford ,Virginia..
Still as the newspaper editor says in ''The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance'' movie says ''Always Print the legend -not the truth!''
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203
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Pound Va
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(2 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 21, 2009 8:25 PM
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I think you intirely missed the point.
Of course 22 men killed was a small porportion of the total killed on Omaha Beach, but it was 22 of the 30 men from Bedford Va. in that one unit. Pretty devastaing to that unit, and pretty devastating to the families back in Bedford, Va.
As for the military geatly exaggerating the effectiviness of their weapons, they probably always have, and always will. Back in the mid 60's wew were told the early generation satelites could read the headlines on a newspaper being read by someone in Central Park. When we were switched to the M16 in the Army, we were told by the drill sergants you could hit someone in the ankle and shatter the bones in his whole leg. And etc. etc.
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Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 22, 2009 8:17 AM
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Beavor is apparently mis-informed. The AAF heavy bomber missions flown in support of the Normandy landings were not aimed at the beaches proper. In fact, the weather reports dictated that the bombing be done by H2X through the overcast. The axis of attack was perpendicular to the beaches and the bombardiers were ordered - with Eisenhower's approval - to delay bomb release for 30 seconds after they had crossed the beach line. The intent was to carpet the areas behind the beaches - there was never any attempt at precision bombing on the D-Day support missions. Neither was there intent for the heavies to crater the beaches. In fact, the bomb load was fitted with instantaneous fuses to minimize heavy cratering that might impede Alllied motorized movement.
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Illegitimis non carborundum, "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell
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Jun 22, 2009 9:48 AM
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As troops came ashore at Normandy, they made an unpleasant discovery all too familiar to the Marine Corps and Army operating in the Pacific campaign. Despite the intensive air and naval bombardment of coastal defenses, those defenses were, by and large, intact when the invasion force "hit the beach." This was particularly true at OMAHA beach, where American forces suffered serious casualties and critical delays. Despite a massive series of attacks by Eighth Air Force B-17s, B-24s and medium bombers in the early hours of June 6, the invading troops were hung up on the beach. The air commanders themselves had, in fact, predicted that the air and naval bombardments would not achieve the desired degree of destruction of German defensive positions. The Army's general optimism that air would cleanse the beaches before its approach, however, was shattered.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-H-DDay/index.html
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Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 22, 2009 10:02 AM
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As mccoffee points out pin-point bombing of beach defenses was not on the 8AF agenda for D-Day. To lay the blame for assault casualties on the bombers is absurd. Overall beach casualties were actually less than expected, Omaha Beach being the exception. The loss to Bedford, VA was extremely significant to a town of its size.
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(6 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 22, 2009 10:39 AM
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hello all- enjoying the spirted debate. In one documentary I watched re D-day heard that the heavy bomber bombadiers over OMAHA were instructed to observe a 3 second delay before releasing the bombs.
Maybe hoping to hit the bunkers and 'backstage' areas?
Nan
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Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 22, 2009 10:51 AM
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Thanks for your point about the ''Bedford Boys'' whose losses Beevor plays down iin his book -numerically that is.
And lest I be accused-wrongly-of making some kind of anti-American statement the 1941 Butt Report on Bomber Command operations over Germany found that mst British bombers in 1941 were lucky to get miles within the target never mind hit it.
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(8 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 22, 2009 10:56 AM
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Anybody know what time this bombing was supposed to happen? If we are talking about "daylight" bombing, I would think there wasn't much of a window between dawn and the first boats hitting the beaches. What were they going to do, try to let loose 500-lb bombs from 15,000 feet through cloud cover and fog with Higgins boats being only a few hundred yards from the beach and heading toward the beaches at their best speed? Being off by 15 minutes, or northwards by a couple hundred yards, could have been devestating to the Allied soldiers - and yet not do that much damage to the Germans inside their concrete emplacements. If I were a planner, I would try to avoid that possibility by directing medium or high-altitude bombers to targets further inland. The circumstances of a few weeks later, when Allied bombers attempting to carpet-bomb German defences managed to hit their own troops instead, illustrates the danger.
Bombardments in the Pacific of Japanese-held islands had the advantage that they usually had several days of opportunities in advance to hit the islands. The islands were isolated and there was little danger of reinforcement, so surprise wasn't much of an issue. Even so, naval gunners and the Marines were pretty impressed by the ability of simple tree-trunk and sandbagged pillboxes to withstand everything but a direct hit.
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(9 of 48)
8th AF plan for Normandy D-Day air assault
Jun 22, 2009 11:08 AM
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The most important and by far the most elaborate D-day plans concerned the first mission of the day, involving attacks immediately prior to H-hour against 45 coastal installations between the Orne and the Vire estuaries on the Normandy coast of France. The 6 mile coastal strip included all assault beaches except an adjacent American beach, designated as UTAH, which was the responsibility of the U.S. Ninth Air Force.
Some 1,200 heavy bombers were to participate, flying in squadrons of six aircraft. Following a carefully devised system of predawn assembly aided by searchlights, navigation lights, Aldis lamps, buncher and splasher beacons, and GEE equipment, the aircraft were to fly predesignated courses to the target area, bombing in successive waves until H-hour (or thereafter attacking secondary targets well inland). Assault craft were to remain 1,000 yards offshore until H-hour, and a 5-minute interval was to elapse between the releases by the last wave of bombers and the initial touchdown by the assault troops. These safety factors represented the final compromise between the desire of the ground forces to exploit immediately the demoralization resulting from the bombing at the risk of casualties and the inclination of the air forces to impose considerably greater intervals to minimize the dangers from possible bombing errors.
Demoralization of enemy front-line defenders and disruption of communication lines for reserve forces were the sole aims of the pre-assault bombing. It was understood that only a small percentage of the actual targets would suffer direct hits and smaller still would be the number seriously affected. Bomb loadings were established of 100-lb. GP, 120-lb. fragmentation, 500-lb. GP, and 1,000-lb. GP, the last for installations well clear of the beaches. Fuzing was to be instantaneous to avoid cratering the beaches except for targets away from the landing areas, where 1/10 nose-1/100 tail was permissible.
Alternative plans were provided for bombing through overcast, since it had been agreed that, other factors being favorable, the ground assault would be initiated whether or not visual bombing was possible and, if necessary, entirely without bomber cooperation, in which event the Eighth Air Force was to be in constant readiness. Minimum requirements for visual attacks by heavy bombers were an 8,000-foot ceiling, 3-mile visibility, and sufficient breaks in any low cloud to permit ready target identification. less favorable conditions would demand the substitution of the plan involving overcast technique. Pinpointing of targets would be impossible, but since demoralization and immobilization of enemy forces were the principal aim, it was considered that area bombing of the sectors wherein lay the specific visual targets would provide virtually the same effect.
Squadrons were to fly six abreast and bomb on the release of a Pathfinder aircraft in one of the center squadrons. By such an arrangement deflection errors were largely neutralized, but further safeguards against errors in range were deemed necessary. Accordingly, the interval between the final bombing and the initial touchdown was to be increased to 10 minutes. One other necessary change was the instantaneous fuzing of all bombs, since the entire attack was to be directed against the assault beaches, which must not be cratered. Since the Ninth Air Force aircraft were not equipped for overcast bombing, provision was needed to cover UTAH beach in their stead, should it prove impossible for even the medium bombers to operate beneath the cloud base.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-W-Normandy/index.html#planning
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Bombing was to be completed 10 minutes prior
Jun 22, 2009 11:10 AM
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to first landing craft approach to the beach. (See my post on the 8th AF plan, above)
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Re: Bombing was to be completed 10 minutes prior
Jun 22, 2009 11:27 AM
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8AF takeoff times were between 0155 and 0529 - target times were not found, but the bombing was in successive waves and to end as PeteP stated, 10 minutes prior to the first beach approach time. Medium bombers attacked targets in the immediate vicinity of UTAH beach between 0605 and 0624. Other mediums were tasked farther inland. Fighter-bombers were assigned point targets near the beaches, but target times were not found.
--
Illegitimis non carborundum, "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell
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(12 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 28, 2009 11:09 PM
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\/ see below
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"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
"Cluster bombing is very, very accurate the bombs always hit the ground."
Kevin J.J.F.R.
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888
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(13 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 29, 2009 4:22 PM
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Tyrod, you’re missing the thrust of this silly thread my friend. The RAF spent the duration of WW2 flying at night and bombing non combatants in German cities. They were NO-MATCH for the Luftwaffa in the bright light of day until we neutralized them first. The USAAF bombed military targets during the hours of daylight when we could see what we were doing. The Norden bombsight made us quite accurate for the times. The USAAF was never turned back from a mission.
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(14 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 29, 2009 6:33 PM
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> Tyrod, you’re missing the thrust of this silly thread
> my friend. The RAF spent the duration of WW2 flying
> at night and bombing non combatants in German cities.
> The
> USAAF bombed military targets during the hours of
> daylight when we could see what we were doing.
Sometimes. Othertimes the RAF attacked military targets and the USAAF area bombed German cities.
It's easy to spot the USAAF area bombing raids; although official policy was to deny it, practice was to load up with large proportions of incendiaries and attack German city centres using radar aiming.
Richard G Davis, official USAF historian, quotes the targeting instructions for the 8th AF in 1944:
No towns or cities in Germany will be attacked
as secondary or last resort targets, targets of
opportunity, or otherwise, unless such towns con-
tain or have immediately adjacent to them, one (1)
or more military objectives. Military objectives
include railway lines; junctions; marshalling yards;
railway or road bridges, or other communications
networks; any industrial plant; and such obvious
military objectives as oil storage tanks, military
camps and barracks, troop concentrations, motor
transport or AFV parks, ordnance or supply
depots, ammunition depots; airfields; etc.
2. Combat crews will be briefed before each mis-
sion to insure that no targets other than military
objectives in Germany are attacked.
3. It has been determined that towns and cities
large enough to produce an identifiable return on
the H2X scope generally contain a large proportion
of the military objectives listed above. These cen-
ters, therefore, may be attacked as secondary or
last resort targets through the overcast bombing
technique.
In other words, if the town shows up on radar, bomb it.
> The
> Norden bombsight made us quite accurate for the
> times.
It good conditions with no cloud, no flak and no smoke screens, about 30% of bombs landed within 1,000 ft of the aiming point.
But good conditions were rare. Europe is a cloudy place and the Germans, unsportingly, fired flak against the American planes and created smokescreens to obscure the target. Under those sort of conditions the USAAF got about 0.2% of its bombs within 1,000 ft of the aiming point.
As Davis concludes:
The evidence indicates that Bomber Command,
on the whole, delivered more of its bombs closer to its aiming points than USSTAF.
The USSBS highlights that with its sample of attacks on 3 large German oil complexes. The RAF achieved a higher hit percentage than the USAAF.
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(15 of 48)
Re: SO MUCH FOR PRECISION AYLIGHT BOMBING AND THE PICKLE BARREL
Jun 29, 2009 7:00 PM
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The end result of Britsh night bombing and American daylight bombing was that the Germans were bombed night and day. Or, would the overall effort and effect been optimized if both forces concentrated on the same part of the day ?
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