|
Posts:
341
From:
Cola SC
Registered:
8/1/08
|
|
(1 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 2:10 PM
|
I hear things about "this being best" and "that being best" Like which was the best infantry weapon. I say..it depends !! If I'm stuck in a hedgerow in France or the thick woods of the Philippines where no shot will be beyond 50 yards then give me a Tommy gun. But what if the enemy is entrenched at 200 yards ? Might as well just use your Tommy gun to dig a hole. Of course give me a Garand in that situation with it's 30-06 cartridge. So, very often, IT DEPENDS !
As far as fighter planes go, the Mustang is thrown around as the best. Although, many pilots that flew both P47 and P51 would choose the P47 Thunderbolt for the bottom line reason they were more likely to come home alive. But certainly Mustang scores huge points for being able to escort bombers all the way to Berlin.
So here's the scenario. You and 11 of your buddies are facing 12 Focke Wulf 190s, later class with methanol injection, in May 45. Your base is 200 miles apart and you'll fly at one another so you'll both have pleny of fuel. For the sake of argument, let's say the 24 pilots have equal skills and experience (use your imagination here---obviously some German pilots had 200+ kills by then and others had just sat in a plane for the first time only days earlier.)
First off, which plane do pick if you have your choice. Second, who comes out on top ?
My answer to the first is easier then the second, but even with the first it's tough to pick just one. I'd pick the F4U Corsair. With the Thunderbolt and Hellcat just behind. And the Mustang a distant 4th, tied with the Spitfire. Sorry Mustang fans, they were just too easy to bring down with their vulnerable liquod engine cooled engines. A single bullet could break the coolant line, then it's a matter of time before the engine seizes.
Now who wins ? Not sure here. FW 190s are bad asses with 2200+ HP engines in their later versions. Several German aces accumulated 200+ kills in them.
I'd say it would be equal with 5 Corsair shot down and 5 190s shot down. A few of the remaining 14 would be shot up for sure.
Now before anyone attacks me here, you have to use a little imagination here. There's no such dam thing a "fairness" and "chivalry" in aerial combat. And example would be the P47s and 51s attacking 262 jets as they were landing because it was easier and safer. Chuck Yaeger said "it wasn't very sporting, but what the hell."...with a smile.
Tony
|
|
|
Posts:
66
From:
UK
Registered:
8/29/07
|
|
(2 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 2:29 PM
|
|
I don't know about the best fighter, but the most versatile plane has to be the Hawker/Harrier Jumpjet, fighter and bomber combined, with rescue capability. If it is soley fighter capabilities, it would probably be the latest stealth fighter.
|
|
|
Posts:
66
From:
UK
Registered:
8/29/07
|
|
(3 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 2:33 PM
|
Sorry, just realised this was WWII thread
|
|
|
Posts:
2,714
From:
Washington state
Registered:
9/10/99
|
|
(4 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 2:52 PM
|
Fw 190 vs. F4U? I'll let someone who has flown both give his opinion.
Eric Brown, in Duels in the Sky, cites this contest as a mismatch, that the Corsair would have no chance of winning.
"Corsair II versus Focke Wulf 190A-4
This would be a contest between a heavyweight and a lightweight fighter, with virtually all the advantages on the side of the latter. Having flown both aircraft a lot, I have no doubt as to which one I would rather fly. The Fw 190A-4 could not be bested by the Corsair.
Verdict: The Fw 190 was arguably the best piston engine fighter of World War II. It is a clear winner in combat with the Corsair."
As for my answer to the question, i'd pick a Spitfire Mk.XIV.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
|
|
|
Posts:
1,829
From:
Melbourne, Australia.
Registered:
10/3/02
|
|
(5 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 2:57 PM
|
SPITFIRE!!!!!!!!!
John.
|
|
|
Posts:
1,718
Registered:
2/12/03
|
|
(6 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 3:01 PM
|
Dang it Robert, you beat me to my responce!
Did Brown give any opinion as to his preverence between the FW 190 A & D models? The "Dora" picked up speen and performance at high altitude, but my readings give me the impression that it wasn't as good in the roll and other manuvers.
Harold
|
|
|
Posts:
2,714
From:
Washington state
Registered:
9/10/99
|
|
(7 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 3:21 PM
|
> Dang it Robert, you beat me to my responce!
>
> Did Brown give any opinion as to his preverence
> between the FW 190 A & D models? The "Dora" picked up
> speen and performance at high altitude, but my
> readings give me the impression that it wasn't as
> good in the roll and other manuvers.
>
> Harold
Brown notes in Duels in the Sky that "The Fw 190D-9 preserved all the superb handling characteristics of the earlier versions, and in addition had significantly enhanced engine and firepower."
He doesn't specifically compare the rate of roll of the 190A and -D, but the outstanding rate of roll of the Fw 190D is the specific reason that Brown elevates it into a tie with the Spitfire Mk.XIV as the best piston engined fighter of the war, in his opinion.
In Wings of the Luftwaffe, he compares the rate of roll of the Ta 152H and Fw 190A, saying that "I found a noticeable reduction in roll rate and an inrease in stick force per g by comparison with its BMW 801-powerd predecessors, some of the more attractive qualities of the original fighter having been sacrificed in order to achieve the best possible performance at extreme altitudes."
Of course the Ta 152H was the high-altitude version of the the Ta 152, with extended span wings and other changes, so it wouldn't be directly comparable with the Fw 190D at all.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
|
|
|
Posts:
1,615
From:
UK
Registered:
5/1/08
|
|
(8 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 3:35 PM
|
Surely the only measure to solve this question is Kills.
There are numerous ways to break down the stats for analysis
but simply the highest scoring fighter model should do it.
So.......... the highest scoring WWII aircraft threat was - P- ilot Error. 
--
DARE TO LOSE
My signature looks a little tremulous, but my resolution is firm.
|
|
|
Posts:
5,263
From:
San Francisco, CA
Registered:
11/7/06
|
|
(9 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 4:03 PM
|
I would go with the P-51 D's and take my chances. Speed and maneuverability have to count for something.
Keep in mind that if what you have in mind is a knights in shining armour seanerio, P-38's or the Mosquito will do.
|
|
|
Posts:
341
From:
Cola SC
Registered:
8/1/08
|
|
(10 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 5:15 PM
|
what a wack website. I can't see the first 7 responses anymore. usually Ive seen the page #s at the bottom. Oh well.
Oh, I definitely disagree that it's a given the FW 190 would wipe out the Corsairs. They are much closer then a couple of the posters suggested in my opinion. Sure, Eric Brown, the Brit test pilot said it was superior, but so what, plenty of critics say he's biased (we all are to a certain extent, so it's not a bigtime bashing of the man). Quick search on the planes and you can find good sources saying the Corsair was at least even or better. One source:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/corsair-vs-bf-109g-k-fw-190-s-10181.html
I read in the above website a quote from Brown stating the Hellcat and FW were even, but oh so much better than a Corsair. Yeah, right. Sorry, that doesn't add up.
And besides, P47s had an 8 to 1 kill ratio against all of the Germans. And the Corsair is comparable...ie same P&W engine, big time dive rate, etc. I'd the Corsair/FW fight would be darn even.
|
|
|
Posts:
1,623
From:
Utica, IL
Registered:
5/5/08
|
|
(11 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 5:32 PM
|
|
I'd say you're not likely right on the F4U Corsairs being dead meat to FW 190s; they have speed, they have range, and they have greater ammo capacity. I would make the choice of the P-47 as the top American aces in Europe shot down a fair number of FW 190s while flying P-47s.
|
|
|
Posts:
9,866
Registered:
11/18/04
|
|
(12 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 6:49 PM
|
Boykin530
>Sorry Mustang fans, they were just too easy to bring down with their vulnerable liquid engine cooled engines. A single bullet could break the coolant line, then it's a matter of time before the engine seizes.
Now who wins ? Not sure here. FW 190s are bad asses with 2200+ HP engines in their later versions. Several German aces accumulated 200+ kills in them. <
Which later version of the Fw 190? If your talking about the Fw-190 D9 with 2100 hp, then your talking about a liquid cooled inverted Junkers Jumo 213 A-1 V-12, with the same likelihood of taking a bullet to the cooling system and therefore loosing the motor as the Spitfire and the Mustang.
In a head to head fight with pilots of equal ability and experience, I would lean toward the P-47.
I wonder which WWII single engine air craft has won more air races championship's since the end of the war?
--
"I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you've probably misunderstood what I said."
Alan Greenspan
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure."
-- Albert Einstein
|
|
|
Posts:
341
From:
Cola SC
Registered:
8/1/08
|
|
(13 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 7:29 PM
|
Which later version of the Fw 190? If your talking about the Fw-190 D9 with 2100 hp, then your talking about a liquid cooled inverted Junkers Jumo 213 A-1 V-12, with the same likelihood of taking a bullet to the cooling system and therefore loosing the motor as the Spitfire and the Mustang.
Yes, I'm aware the FW moved away from the BMW engine. So herein lies the problem. These discussions are always time dependent. I like the way Chuck Hawks presented his opinion, using ratings by year, in the website below:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/best_fighter_planes.htm
--
Tony
|
|
|
Posts:
1,718
Registered:
2/12/03
|
|
(14 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 9:03 PM
|
Well, If Brown puts it on a par with the Spit XIV, then that's high praise indeed! The only "Dora" i've personally seen was the one in Seattle.
Harold
|
|
|
Posts:
2,714
From:
Washington state
Registered:
9/10/99
|
|
(15 of 24)
Aug 3, 2008 11:12 PM
|
> Oh, I definitely disagree that it's a given the FW
> FW 190 would wipe out the Corsairs. They are much
> closer then a couple of the posters suggested in my
> opinion. Sure, Eric Brown, the Brit test pilot said
> it was superior, but so what, plenty of critics say
> he's biased (we all are to a certain extent, so it's
> not a bigtime bashing of the man). Quick search on
> the planes and you can find good sources saying the
> Corsair was at least even or better. One source:
>
> http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/corsair-vs-b
> f-109g-k-fw-190-s-10181.html
>
> I read in the above website a quote from Brown
> wn stating the Hellcat and FW were even, but oh so
> much better than a Corsair. Yeah, right. Sorry, that
> doesn't add up.
>
> And besides, P47s had an 8 to 1 kill ratio against
> st all of the Germans. And the Corsair is
> comparable...ie same P&W engine, big time dive rate,
> etc. I'd the Corsair/FW fight would be darn even.
Of course all of us are biased, and Brown has admitted on several occasions that the Corsair is not among his favorite aircraft. He does indeed rank the Hellcat as a much greater fighter than the Corsair; the F6F is third on his list of the overall greatest fighters of WW2, while the Corsair is not listed in his seven nominated; and on his list of greatest WW2 Naval fighters, the Hellcat is number one, while the F4U is number four. So he's certainly consistent!
And opinions are, after all, opinions. No one's opinion on anything should be regarded as gospel. But he's the single person whose opinion I would give the most weight to on judging WW2 aircraft, because he simply has the most experience. Brown holds the world records for number of different types of aircraft flown (487!), and the most carrier landings. He was the head of the Enemy Aircraft Flight at Farnborough, so he had the opportunity to fly virtually every Allied and Axis fighter of the war. In fact the list of WW2 fighters he has flown is pretty amazing. I doubt there is any other pilot, for example, who has flown the Spitfire, Hurricane, Tempest, Typhoon, Meteor, Fulmar, MB.5, P-51, P-47, P-38, P-39, P-40, F4F, F4U, F6F, F8F, A6M Zero, Ki-84, Ki-43, I-16, Yak-9, La-7, Macchi 202, Fiat G.50, MS. 406, D.520, Bf 109, Fw 190, Do 335, Me 262, and Me 163!
The P-47 had nowhere near an 8-1 kill record against the Germans. The official USAAF statistics show that the P-47 destroyed 3,082 enemy aircraft in the air in the European war, against 3,077 P-47s lost in combat, an almost exactly equal ratio.
--
TV interviewer: Why do you think people love Doctor Who so much?
Russell T. Davies: Because it's the best idea ever invented in the history of the world!
|
|
|
|
|
