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(46 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 1, 2009 8:44 AM
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Yes Sam Spade (I thought that ''Sam Spade'' was a 1940's AMERICAN RADIO DETECTIVE played by actor Howard Duff?) Hiitler loved the 1930's Gary Cooper and Franchot Tone movie ''THE BENGAL LANCERS'' with its tales of Iperial derring do and keeping the Indian natives in their places.
However, today, ''BENGAL LANCER'' is an insulting term in Britain being Cockney slang for someone who is a chancer ie con man as in ''Watch him! -he's a real Bangel Lancer i.e. ''chancer/con man/grifter''.
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594
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(47 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 1, 2009 10:29 AM
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Hitler didn't want to fight a two front war. That's why he was so desperate to defeat Britain.
Both directive 16 and 17 set out the conditions for the attack on Britain:
16:
These preparations will include the creation of conditions which will make a landing in England possible:
1. The British air force must be so far neutralized, both actually and in morale, that it will offer no appreciable resistance to the German crossing operation;
17:
For the purpose of creating conditions for the final defeat of Britain, I intend continuing air and naval warfare against the English motherland in a more severe form than hitherto.
For this purpose I order as follows:
1. The Luftwaffe will employ all forces available to eliminate the British air force as soon as possible. In the initial stages, attacks will be directed primarily against the hostile air forces and their ground service organization and supply installations, and against air armament industries, including factories producing AAA equipment.
2. Once temporary or local air superiority is achieved, operations will continue against ports, particularly against installations for the storage of food, and against food storage installations farther inland. In view of intended future German operations, attacks against ports on the south coast of England will be restricted to a minimum.
Of course what happened is the Luftwaffe failed to fulfil the first, most important part of the plan. Without air superiority a landing was impossible. Instead the Luftwaffe, in the face of unsustainable losses, switched to the second part of the plan, without first achieving air superiority. They began attacking ports and food storage in the hope they could force Britain to surrender. That failed too.
> The air battles over Russia dwarfed the BOB
The number of serviceable German aircraft deployed against Britain at the start of the BoB and against Russia at the start of Barbarossa:
Type - BoB - Barb
Bombers 998 - 510
Stukas - 261 - 290
SE Fighters 805 - 440
TE Fighters 224 - 40
There were two reasons the Luftwaffe fielded such a weak force against Russia.
Firstly a year of heavy fighting had depleted their strength. Whilst replacements had more than made up the numbers in some types, effectiveness suffered.
Second the Luftwaffe was already fighting a 2 front war before the attack on Russia. Whereas the Luftwaffe had been able to deploy almost all their strength against Britain in 1940, in 1941 they could only spare 65%, with the rest being required to hold the line in W Europe and the Med.
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272
From:
Texas
Registered:
6/15/07
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(48 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 2, 2009 3:33 PM
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The RAF had several advantages, the German Fighers range was insufficient and the figher could only spend about 15 to 30 minutes over Britain. They could only provide limited cover for the Bombers. The RAF fighter pilots could spend more time in the air defending the skys over England, when they ran low on fuel or ammo they had a shorter flight back to base, they could refuel and rearm and be back in the air.
When a RAF pilot's plane was shot down he was usually over friendly territory, if he hadn't been killed or badly wounded he could be back in another aircraft in a few days. If a German pilot was shot he was over enemy territory if he survived he became a prisoner.
The members of the RAF also knew that they had to win, failure was not an option.
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(49 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 2, 2009 5:23 PM
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But as the very lattest book published Great Britain about the Battle of Britain makes abundantly clear the German piolts shot down in the English Channel had a vastly better chance of surviviving in 1940 than any RAF pilot did.
Firstly, because every German fighter piolot had a dinghy which inflated beneath him while the RAF piolts only had Mae West lifejackets.
German pilots had green dye to spread on the water so that they could be located easily -the RAF piolts had none of this in 1940.
Also the Germans had a sophisticated AIR/SEA Rrecue service in 1940 vastly more advanced than the R'AF''S primitive set up.
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37
From:
Utica IL
Registered:
7/24/08
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(50 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 4, 2009 2:59 PM
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Trusting in God and praying for radar. The Spitfire was another major reason.
SD
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Posts:
4,563
From:
Southern California Foothills
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(51 of 63)
Jul 4, 2009 3:03 PM
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>Trusting in God and praying for radar. The Spitfire was another major reason. <
Trusting in Dowding is more like it. They already had radar and a competent, vast network of air-raid warnings. The Spitfire was hardly a factor. I would bet my bottom dollar that if every Spitfire in the Battle were withdrawn and replaced by a Hurricane, the result would have been the same, but maybe a week later than historical.
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14
From:
Malaysia
Registered:
7/4/09
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(52 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 4, 2009 10:04 PM
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simply we cut it short...the magnificent spitfire and the radar chain...
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(53 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 5, 2009 7:50 AM
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And Sir Hugh Dowding and Tory Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin both of whom were responsible for the radar , the Spitfires and Hurricanes and the advanced early warning system that Britain had in place in 1939.
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215
From:
london
Registered:
11/26/07
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(54 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 5, 2009 3:51 PM
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There are many reasons.
1. The Luftwaffe was never a strategic force, only tactical. They never even produced a heavy four engined bomber. The 'Stuka' was great at supporting ground forces but was a slow cumbersome sitting duck to modern fighters.
2. Radar, coupled with command and control meant the RAF could sit waiting until the very last minute, reserving fuel supplies and resting pilots as long as possible. Me's had only ten minutes flying time over the South East before they had to return for refueling.
3. Britain was able to 'recycle' pilots who survived being shot down, German pilots became POW's
4. Not often discussed, but history has shown that men fight harder and braver when defending their homeland as shown later in the war when the allies reached German soil.
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85
From:
Michigan
Registered:
2/11/08
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(55 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 17, 2009 10:08 PM
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> There are many reasons.
> 1. The Luftwaffe was never a strategic force, only
> tactical. They never even produced a heavy four
> engined bomber. The 'Stuka' was great at supporting
> ground forces but was a slow cumbersome sitting duck
> to modern fighters.
The Luftwaffe used the Stuka dive-bomber in part as a weapon of terror. The German dive-bombing attacks were intended as much to destroy the public morale of nations under attack as to do physical damage. People hundreds of kilometers away from the land front found their lives in as much disarray as soldiers. In a Continental country under Nazi attack, there was no safe haven. Until World War II, civilians generally understood that they could flee a front to safer locations. In Poland, the Low Countries, and France there was no safe haven. This was a revolutionary situation for which no country was prepared.
The British got the time in which to find countermeasures that such people as the Poles -- whose armies were perfectly suited for a war like World War I -- could not develop[ fast enough.
> 2. Radar, coupled with command and control meant the
> RAF could sit waiting until the very last minute,
> reserving fuel supplies and resting pilots as long as
> possible. Me's had only ten minutes flying time over
> the South East before they had to return for
> refueling.
Beyond doubt. Had the Germans figured out what radar was and how the British were using it, they would have struck it and regained a powerful advantage as in ... Poland. Adolf Hitler was always the master of destructive attacks upon enemies.
> 3. Britain was able to 'recycle' pilots who survived
> being shot down, German pilots became POW's
Without qualification: a huge advantage. Note also that any downed German aircraft, whatever their condition, became scrap metal for the British war effort
> 4. Not often discussed, but history has shown that
> men fight harder and braver when defending their
> homeland as shown later in the war when the allies
> reached German soil.
Mixed story. The German soldiers (and foreign SS units who knew that they faced death or worse upon defeat by the Soviet Army) fought the Russians with greater ferocity once the Soviet Army was on German soil -- in part because of Soviet atrocities against German civilians in East Prussia. (Wartime atrocities always constitute blunders). Except for SS forces, German armies typically collapsed before advancing American, British, and French troops once the western Allies reached the Rhine.
Whether people resist an invader depends upon the reputation that the invader has gotten.
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1,803
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(56 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 18, 2009 6:07 AM
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...
> Beyond doubt. Had the Germans figured out what radar
> was and how the British were using it, they would
> have struck it and regained a powerful advantage as
> in ... Poland. Adolf Hitler was always the master of
> destructive attacks upon enemies.
The Germans have a claim on inventing radar. They certainly knew what it was. Indeed they did try taking out some of the radar stations but they were not especially easy targets to hit. Perhaps they would have done more if they understood the British defenses or perhaps not.
You also overestimate Hitler.
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(57 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 18, 2009 5:06 PM
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And credit must be given to Number One Squadron, Royal Air Force flying Hurricanes in France during the Phoney War. 1939-40.
A Number One squadron pilot experimented with a sheet of armoured plate behind his head and shoulders on his cockpit seat and he escaped being killed thanks to this innovation.
Consequently, even though the RAF brass pooh bahed this innova\tion of armour plate foR pilots it became standard practice in NO-One squadron and eventually the whole of Fighter Command.-SAVING MANY PILOT'S LIVES DURING THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN
Number One Squadron R.A.F. was the squadron of Paul Richey whose book ''Fighter Pilot'' was an early WW2 classic.
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2,608
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(58 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 19, 2009 8:50 AM
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No, try reading about Douhet and his theories. Douhet taught in the 30's that the bomber alone could win wars and he belief ws the bomber would always get through. One of the reason the British and French were so hesitant to fight Hitler was the mistaken belief that waves of bombers would fly over Paris and London and other cities bombing them to oblivion.
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Posts:
10
From:
Bellingham
Registered:
7/19/09
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(59 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 19, 2009 11:37 PM
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Maybe a bit OT but I have read a few comments on the Boulton Defiant. I wonder how much criticism should be directed at the concept and how much should be directed at the aircraft design itself.
I think many have a misconception of what the Defiant was supposed to be. It was designed to be a bomber interceptor. Being able to concentrate firepower at many attack angles and maintaining that firepower for a longer duration of time.
To me the Defiant was a creative idea that had serious merit. I am sure the idea was that a fully trainable armament was superior to merely having your guns firing forward and pointing your plane like a big flying gun.
Even if the idea of the Defiant was a failure in any application, I still respect the creativity that it took to try to rethink what a bomber interceptor should be.
But I think it's important to remember that the Defiant was not designed as a dogfighter. And I think a lot of people think it was. Really, the Defiant was a forerunner of successful night fighers like the P61 heavy night figher that had trainable guns.
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Posts:
10
From:
Bellingham
Registered:
7/19/09
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(60 of 63)
Re: How on earth did the R.A.F win the battle of BritAIN?
Jul 19, 2009 11:52 PM
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Now about the BoB.
I am of the belief that the main faliure of the Luftwaffe was too broad a scope. Rather than trying to control limited airspace over England, the Luftwaffe attempted to scour the skies of the RAF completely. Way too ambitious, basically an impossible task.
The BoB is as much about operation Sea Lion in overall scope. Failure to even come up with a reasonable way to get 100, troops on the shores of England pretty much pre-determines the outcome of the BoB.
A: the Luftwaffe was NOT going to accomplish the task of taking the RAF out of business.
B: Germany simply didn't have the ability to ship that many troops accross the channel.
The only way I could see Germany being able to pull off Sea Lion was to limit the scope. Air superiority over the invasion beach, paratroopers taking out communication centers and radar installations prior to the invasion. Secure a beach-head and funnel troops into that beach-head and capture some local airfields for the Luftwaffe.
Very ambitious task.
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