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Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 2, 2009 3:54 PM
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I've been informed that PBS has scheduled a new documentary due in a few months about the Air War in WW2. Earlier documentaries tended to emphasize the effect of RAF and 8th A.F. bombing on the overall outcome of the war. This has not been completely contradicted by more recent research and surveys, including new data about Luftwaffe bombing of occupied territory. What is the opinion of this forum on this controversial subject?
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I find your question a little vague. Please enlighten us.
Jul 2, 2009 7:11 PM
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"This has not been completely contradicted by more recent research and surveys, including new data about Luftwaffe bombing of occupied territory" Just what does this mean? Luftwaffe bombing of what territory? Occupied by whom? And "not been completely contradicted"? What does that mean? Post-war research has indicated that bombing campaigns were not as effective as their proponents hoped - but what documentaries did this contradict? It has long been accepted fact, I believe, that the bombing campaign by Bomber Command and USAAF did not cause, by itself, the collapse of Nazi Germany.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 2, 2009 9:02 PM
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Although it has been some time since I read it and I do not have the book with me I believe that Richard Overy in his book Why the Allies Won credits the Air War with effecting only one industry significantly - Oil Production.
Dan
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Re: I find your question a little vague. Please enlighten us.
Jul 3, 2009 12:48 AM
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Just what does this mean? Luftwaffe bombing of what territory? Occupied by whom?
This means the Luftwaffe bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam, Belgrade, Stalingrad, among other Nazi occupied territories.
And "not been completely contradicted"? What does that mean? Post-war research has indicated that bombing campaigns were not as effective as their proponents hoped - but what documentaries did this contradict? It has long been accepted fact, I believe, that the bombing campaign by Bomber Command and USAAF did not cause, by itself, the collapse of Nazi Germany
And this means that earlier claims and emphasis on the effectiveness of the RAF and USAAF's participation in the collapse of the Nazis have not been completely contradicted, nor has it long been accepted fact.
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These two Bombing Survey sites...
Jul 3, 2009 8:03 AM
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provide interesting reading, if a bit lengthy. They also downplay the overall effectiveness of the conventional bombing effect, but it must be remembered that when they were compiled (immediately post-war), the atomics were being heralded as the "new weapon" which would make conventional bombing obsolecent.
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm
and:
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm
With the possible "slant" of the new atomic USAAF in mind they still contain some interesting data breakdowns in both theaters.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 4, 2009 2:34 AM
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Maybe the air effort wasn't as precise as the planners had predicted, but the blunt force trauma that the air campaign inflicted on the German populance, the utter devestation of some of germany's biggest cities, and the destruction of the Luftwaffe certainly degraded the populations desire to fight.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 4, 2009 6:11 AM
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Re:
"the utter devestation of some of germany's biggest cities, and the destruction of the Luftwaffe certainly degraded the populations desire to fight. "
The killing done mostly by the RAF bomber command of German women and kids in fact had the opposite effect.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 4, 2009 3:05 PM
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It would be extremely difficult to properly assess the effect the air war had on the outcome of WW2. Germany's war production didn't go full tilt until late in the war. Total war wasn't in effect until 1943 and women were under utilized. There are too many variables in the equation to give a definitive answer to this question.
The bombing of rail lines, dams, factories, cities, all would have a negative effect on Germany's capability to wage war, but to what extent I think will be something that will be argued forever.
I sometimes wonder what the effect would have been if instead of building bombers we were building tanks, ground attack aircraft and other war material.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 5, 2009 4:03 PM
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Albert Speer, when interviewed on 'The World at war', said thousands of anti aircraft guns, millions of shells, hundreds of aircraft, hundreds of thousands of personnel necessary to defend Germany from the bombing campaign, meant that effectively a second front was already open.
When asked why Germany lost, he replied 'We lost the bombing war'.
Yes, many thousands of innocent German children, women and non combatants were killed and that is tragic but didn't the poison dwarf ask 'Do you want tottaller Krieg?' ya, ya came the reply, they got their wish.
If anyone thinks the bombing war had no effect, then just look at the aerial photographs of Germany after the war. The phrase 'Total devastation' doesn't even begin to describe it, many thousands of British, Commonwealth and American aircrew gave their lives to defeat the greatest crime in history, don't even think about insulting them.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 5, 2009 6:13 PM
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> Although it has been some time since I read it and I
> do not have the book with me I believe that Richard
> Overy in his book Why the Allies Won credits
> the Air War with effecting only one industry
> significantly - Oil Production.
> Dan
Actually Richard Overy credits the bomber offensive as being the largest factor in deciding the war in Germany's favour. Its main importance, according to Overy, was that it forced the Germans to divert resources from other fields. Overy's research proves rather conclusively that the allied bombing was decisive.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 6, 2009 5:24 AM
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The defeat of the Luftwaffe, IMHO, was the primary success of the strategic bombing effort. Defeat of the Luftwaffe was also the Gen Eisenhower approved primary objective of the campaign. Forced to defend German airspace against ever worse odds the Luftwaffe paid dearly.
The resulting air superiority over the ground battlefields was a tremendous advantage to the allies.
There are countless accounts from Wermacht soldiers bemoaning the fact that they were under constant attack by allied tactical air forces with little Luftwaffe support. The soldiers of the Wermacht coined the phrase: "If its a silver aircraft, its American, if its a black aircraft its British, if there is no aircraft its the Luftwaffe."
Other objectives of the bombing campaign were far less successful. Industrial production of war materials was never slowed (the exception was oil production late in the war) and German morale was never fully broken.
The Germans did utlize a lot of assets to combat the bombing campaign which would have been useful elsewhere. However, the most damaging shortage the Germans experienced during the latter stages of the war was manpower, their manpower resources had run out! The bombing campaign had little or nothuing to do with this shortage.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 7, 2009 10:35 AM
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> The defeat of the Luftwaffe, IMHO, was the primary
> success of the strategic bombing effort. Defeat of
> the Luftwaffe was also the Gen Eisenhower approved
The ignores the fact that the defeat of the Luftwaffe fighters over Germany by the escorts of the US bomber fleets, was merely the last stand of the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe had already been defeated over the battlefield, in both the East and Med theaters of operations.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 7, 2009 10:49 AM
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> The ignores the fact that the defeat of the Luftwaffe
> fighters over Germany by the escorts of the US bomber
> fleets, was merely the last stand of the Luftwaffe.
> The Luftwaffe had already been defeated over the
> battlefield, in both the East and Med theaters of
> operations.
"mearly the last stand"??? While they had lost battles, indeed they lost the BOB in 1940 they remained a viable organization up until the bomber offensive hit it's full stride.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 7, 2009 1:55 PM
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On 1 January 1943, essentially the beginning of the American bombing offensive (there were approximately 20-25 small raids, primarily to French U-Boat ports in Nov -Dec), the Luftwaffe maintained 635 BF109 and FW 190 in Western Europe. , This number dwindled slightly during the North African campaign but by 1 Apr 1944 the number of FW 190 and BF109 defending against the American bombers had risen to 850. These figures do not suggest to me that the Luftwaffe was defeated at the outset of the campaign or that this was a "last stand."
Luftflotte 2 (Med) was at its top strenghth (not defeated) in January 1943. Luftflotte 2's strength in Jan 43 was primarily the result of reinforcement to Tunisia. While it is true that German forces lost the battle for North African many of the Luftwaffe fighter groups were able to retire back to the continent in good order. For example, II/JG2, entered Tunisia in January 43 and departed in May 43, during that time II/JG2 claimed 150 allied aircraft destroyed for a combat loss of 8 and losses to all causes of approximately 20. II/JG2 would fight on for the rest of the war. JG 51 posted similiar, but not quite as spectular, results during its stay in Tunisia. At the end of the North African campaign ( May 43) Luftflotte 2 had shrunk to 880 total aircraft but by July this number had grown to 1280 with the bulk of the increase being in BF 109 series fighters. Defeated in the Med? I think not.
In the East, you are closest to correct. The Luftwaffe began the assault on Russia with 2770 aircraft, but by Jan 43, that number was down to 1715. Some of the loss can be attributed to reassigned of units to other fronts but the war in the east was taking its toll on the Luftwaffe. Despite the losses IMHO the Luftwaffe, with its qualitative advantage over the Russian Air Force, was not yet defeated in the East, But an argument can be made.
I would not equate success or failure on the ground to success or failure in the air. In the West the Luftwaffe was essentially defeated in the air without a concurrent ground war. In Africa the Germans lost the ground war but the Luftwaffe and claim success over the allied air forces and much of the Luftwaffe got away to fight another day. In the Med it was IMHO a stalemate in both until the very end.
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Re: Effect of Air War on World War 2
Jul 8, 2009 7:37 AM
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I sometimes wonder what the effect would have been if instead of building bombers we were building tanks, ground attack aircraft and other war material.
I think that's a very significant question, and I'm surprised we don't see more about it. Say how many heavy bomb groups were equivalent to an infantry or armored division in terms of production, shipping to Europe, or maintaining them in action?
One of the great what-ifs is the possibility of a cross-Channel invasion in 1943, and one element of that would be building up US ground forces in Britian in lieu of 8th Air Force.
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