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Nov 6, 2008 2:26 PM
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SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914.
Finally convinced that the Russian mobilization in 1914 did indeed mean war; and that Fritz Fischer?s citation of Bethmann?s September Programme as the German motive for attacking France, Russia, and England, was the most patent nonsense, the ?salvagers? of the Entente epic have retreated to their final redoubt, namely, Austria had no proof of Serbian Government complicity in the Sarajevo crime. They base this assertion upon the statement by Dr. Friedrich von Wiesner who issued a two-page report from Sarajevo on July 13. Wiesner stated that ?there is nothing to prove, or even to cause suspicion of the Serbian Government?s cognizance of the steps leading to the crime, or of its preparing it, or of its supplying the weapons. On the contrary, there are indications that this is to be regarded as out of the question.? Wiesner concluded his report by stating: ?I leave this evening, arriving Vienna Tuesday evening. Will come straight to the Ministry. It is necessary that I should supplement my remarks with verbal report.? On the other hand, there was ?hardly a doubt that the crime was resolved upon in Belgrade, and prepared with the cooperation of Serbian officials, Ciganovitch and Major Tankositch, who provided bombs, Brownings, ammunition, and cyanide of potassium.? Furthermore, Wiesner had concluded that the bombs came from the Serbian Kragujevac arsenal; and that the three assassins with bombs and weapons upon them, were secretly smuggled across the frontier to Bosnia by Serbian agencies through the assistance of Ciganovitch and the frontier captains at Shabatz and Loznica. He also reported that there was valuable material in regard to the Narodna Odbrana which had not yet been sifted, but which he was bringing back to Vienna the next day for further study. Meanwhile, Wiesner suggested the following demands as justified by the evidence already found:
A. Suppression of the cooperation of Serbian official agencies smuggling persons and goods across the frontier.
B. Dismissal of Serbian frontier-captains at Shabatz and Loznica as well as the implicated customs officials.
C. Prosecution of Ciganovitch and Tankositch.
Wiesner?s lengthy verbal report had the effect of converting Tisza to a more assertive attitude and the latter now approved the sending of an ultimatum to Serbia and had the further effect of including Point 7 of the Austrian Note :
7. To proceed without delay to the arrest of Major Voja Tankositch and of the individual named Milan Ciganovitch, a Serbian State employee, who have been compromised by the results of the magisterial enquiry at Sarajevo.
Far from complying with this demand, Serbia ignored Tankositch and actually assisted Ciganovitch to evade Austrian justice. Professor Sidney Fay explains:
?In fact, Serbian police officials appear to have actually aided one of them, Ciganovitch, conveniently to disappear from sight. Mr. Pasitch apparently did not dare take action against the leaders (Dimitrijevitch and Tankositch) of such a powerful organization (the 'Black Hand'), and therefore adopted a purely passive attitude hoping that Europe and Austria did not learn the truth.
Ciganovitch was freely declared by all three of the Sarajevo plotters, both at their arrest and at their trial, to have taken a most active part in their preparations in Belgrade. He {Ciganovitch} was a Bosnian Serb, who came as an émigré to Belgrade in 1908, was trained as a comitadji by Tankositch, and then given employment as a small official on the Serbian State Railways. In 1911 he was enrolled in the 'Black Hand' as 'No. 412,' and fought as a comitadji under Tankositch in the Balkan Wars. In the preparation of the plot he served as the agent of Tankositch. He secured for Princip and his companions in Belgrade the bombs and pistols which were to be used against the Archduke. He gave them cyanide of potassium with which to poison themselves after the crime, and thus prevent revelations concerning Ciganovitch himself and his Serbian accomplices. Upon orders from Tankositch, Ciganovitch took the youths to a shooting park near Belgrade and gave them practice in the use of the Browning pistols. At the end of May, when they were ready to start, he supplied them with cards of introduction to ?Black Hand? agents and ?confidential men? who would help them forward on their journey to Sarajevo.?
Fay continues:
?The reasons for believing that Ciganovitch informed Pasitch do not lie in any direct evidence prior to the assassination, but in the apparent collusion between them afterwards ? in the action of the Serbian authorities to conceal Ciganovitch and have him conveniently disappear from sight, and in the evidence which Ciganovitch gave in 1917 to aid the Radical Party in convicting Dimitrijevitch (Apis) and in breaking the power of the 'Black Hand.' The Belgrade Prefect of Police declared that he did not know anyone by the name of Milan Ciganovitch, but it soon appeared that it was the Prefect of Police himself who had brought about Ciganovitch?s disappearance from Belgrade. It later appeared also this his name was erased from the railway books and was re-entered under the name of Milan Danilov, and as such continued to draw pay.?
Serbia has always maintained, falsely, that it was unable to locate Ciganovitch and was thus unable to establish a link between the three assassins and Tankositch/Apis.
Finally:
"On June 30 the Austrian Charge d?Affaires inquired of the Serbian Government what police measures it had taken, or proposed to take, 'to follow up the clues to the crime which notoriously are partly to be found in Serbia,' but was curtly informed that 'the matter had not yet engaged the attention of the Serbian police' and that 'up to the present nothing had been done, and that the matter did not concern the Serbian Government.' To no one?s surprise, high words then passed between the two as the Austrian expressed his 'extreme astonishment that any Government . . . should exhibit such indifference'"?[/b]
Serbia had been repeatedly warned about any failure to properly investigate and prosecute the Sarajevo plotters. On June 30, Zimmermann, the German Foreign Under-Secretary gave some timely advice to the Serbian Charge d?Affaires in Berlin. The Bavarian Minister at Berlin reported:
?At the Foreign Office they hope that Serbia will now neglect nothing in order to call to account those persons guilty of the conspiracy . . . Mr. Zimmermann offered this counsel on the ground that no one could tell what would happen should the Serbian Government fail to fulfill its obligations, considering the wrath which the Sarajevo deed had aroused in Austria-Hungary.?
But Serbia laughed in Austria?s face. She ordered general mobilization three hours before delivering her ?conciliatory? reply. Her newspapers were full of bile and satisfaction at the ?justice? which had been meted out at Sarajevo and wasted no time in appealing to Russia for ?protection?.
Serbia is the only World War 1 combatant who has refused to publish her diplomatic documents to this day.
Preamble to the English Blue Book:
?No crime has ever aroused deeper or more general horror throughout Europe, none has ever been less justified. Austria was under provocation. She had to complain of a dangerous popular movement against her Government?
Peter
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 7, 2008 10:00 AM
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Peter - are there any sources that give samples or reproduce some of the newspaper articles that are alluded to?
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 7, 2008 12:23 PM
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Hello Glenn,
I have this little sample from before the assassination which appeared in December, 1913, in the Srboban, a Serb émigré newspaper in Zagreb:
"If the heir to the throne goes to Bosnia, we will see that he pays for it . . . Serbs, make use of every available weapon, daggers, guns, bombs and dynamite. Death to the Hapsburg dynasty! The memory of those heroes who rise up against it will live forever!"
You also asked about Berchtold's memoirs but these seem to be curiously lacking. Professor Barnes interviewed Berchtold after the War and wrote that Berchtold had preferred an expedition against Serbia even if this involved Russia, but believed that Russia would stand aside so long as Britain would remain neutral. Berchtold complained that his greatest mistake was to believe the British Ambassador's assurances of neutrality. As for anything actually written by Berchtold, I copied/pasted this from www.answers.com :
There exists nothing substantial on Berchtold in either English or German; his rather superficial diaries and memoirs are unpublished. His diplomacy, however, is detailed in many good works on the Hapsburg Empire and the origins of World War I: Ernst Christian Helmreich, The Diplomacy of the Balkan Wars, 1912-1913 (1938); Arthur James May, The Hapsburg Monarchy, 1867-1914 (1951) and The Passing of the Hapsburg Monarchy, 1914-1918 (2 vols., 1966); Luigi Albertini, The Origins of the War of 1914 (trans., 3 vols., 1952-1957); A. J. P. Taylor, The Struggle for Mastery in Europe, 1848-1918 (1954); and Carlile Aylmer Macartney, The Habsburg Empire, 1790-1918 (1968).
It is certainly remarkable why the memoirs of such a central figure as Berchtold should remain "unpublished."
Peter
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 9, 2008 7:26 AM
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Peter
Von Storck, the Austrian Charge d?Affaires, wrote a report of his meeting with Count Gruic, the secretary general of the Serbian ministry of foreign affairs, that he sent to Berchtold which included a bit more detail that your quote from Fay. In his report von Storck offered this version of the interview:
'I asked (Gruic) the obvious question what the Royal (Serbian) police had done, or is planning to do, in order to investigate the plot which reputedly can be traced hack to Serbian territory. His answer was that until now the Serbian police had not concerned itself with this matter at all. I became indignant when my interlocutor asked me in a self-complacent tone, whether I wanted to submit an official request to this effect. I answered Herr Gruic with some heat "That I had received no orders from my government, but that I did not hesitate to ask him these questions because in my view the Serbian police had an elemental duty to undertake the measures that I was talking about.? I told him once more that I, Herr von Storck, felt compelled to tell him, Count Gruic, that I was frankly dumbfounded at the thought that the Royal police might only do something following an (Austrian) request.'
Notwithstanding the reticence of the Serbian authorities to start an investigation on their own initiative, why didn't von Storck seize the opportunity and submit a formal request for them to do so? He surely couldn't have believed that this was against Vienna's wishes and it would have put the onus back on Serbia. As it was, the Serbians were able to use this and the Austrian's failure to reveal any evidence from their own investigation to deflect criticism from other Governments.
It is noticeable that the charge that the Serbian government failed to carry out an investigation formed no part of either the Austrian Ultimatum or the note it sent to other countries explaining the ultimatum. So I wonder why you continue to raise it. As a matter of interest, did the Austrians ever formally ask for a Serbian investigation prior to 23 July and if so, when?
You said to Glenn that 'There exists nothing substantial on Berchtold in either English or German' and this may well be the case. However the much quoted Professor Fay does include the following comments about him in The Origins Of The World War :
'Count Berchthold, who more than anyone else was responsible for the World War...'
'In July, 1914, it was probably he [Conrad], more than anyone else, who galvanized the incompetent and hesitating Berchtold into an active advocate of war against Serbia.'
'The assassination of the heir to the throne, as a result of a plot prepared in Belgrade, demanded severe retribution ; otherwise Austria would be regarded as incapable of action, ?worm-eaten? as the Serbian Press expressed it, would sink in prestige, and hasten her own downfall. To avert this Berchtold determined to crush Serbia with war . He deliberately framed the ultimatum with the expectation and hope that it would be rejected . He hurriedly declared war against Serbia in order to forestall all efforts at mediation . He refused even to answer his own ally's urgent requests to come to an understanding with Russia, on the basis of a military occupation of Belgrade as a pledge that Serbia would carry out the promises in her reply to the ultimatum . Berchtold gambled on a ?local? war with Serbia only, believing that he could rattle the German sword ; but rather than abandon his war with Serbia, he was ready to drag the rest of Europe into war.'
Jon
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 9, 2008 8:43 AM
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It is noticeable that the charge that the Serbian government failed to carry out an investigation formed no part of either the Austrian Ultimatum or the note it sent to other countries explaining the ultimatum. So I wonder why you continue to raise it.
As the Austrians accused the Serb government of complicity in the attack at Sarajevo, it does not require exceptional insight to understand why the Serbian failure to undertake an investigation after Sarajevo constituted powerful evidence in favour of the Austrian indictment.
Berchtold gambled on a ?local? war with Serbia only, believing that he could rattle the German sword ; but rather than abandon his war with Serbia, he was ready to drag the rest of Europe into war.'
Yes.
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 9, 2008 4:16 PM
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Glenn,
This rather destroys Peters strange conspiricy notions, and seems to indicate you also accept that Austria played a willing and substantial part in starting the war. This is not to say Russia did not also play a large role, but I have yet to see anyone deny that part, only that the Central Powers did seems to be disputed.
Terry
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 9, 2008 5:48 PM
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Jon,
Berchtold's opinion was full shared by Franz Joseph who approved this notification to the Powers after the delivery of the Note on July 23d:
"We cannot allow the demands which we have addressed to Servia, and which contain nothing that would not be considered natural between two neighbours, living in peace and harmony, to be made the subject of negotiations and compromises."
After being informed of Russian general mobilization on July 31st, he responded:
"The action my army is involved in at this moment against Servia cannot be interrupted by the threatening and insolent attitude of Russia. A renewed rescue of Servia by Russian intervention would have the most serious consequences for my country and I can therefore in no case admit of such an intervention."
But just hours later, he telegraphed the Kaiser:
" . . . We are ready to approach the proposal of Sir Edward Grey of a mediation between us and Serbia. We pre-suppose of course that our military action against the Kingdom shall meanwhile continue and that the English Cabinet shall make the Russian Government stop the mobilization directed against us, in which case we would of course also stop the defensive military counter-measures in Galicia, which the Russian mobilization has forced us to undertake."
This last represented a considerable concession as Austria had heretofore been unwilling to negotiate with Serbia directly. I shows, moreover, that Austria was indeed amenable to German pressure
Sydney Bradshaw Fay was a first-rate historian but I do not agree with his final Conclusion. He admits that the plot was "prepared in Belgrade" and that it "demanded severe retribution" but then chides Berchtold for exercising said retribution and states that Berchtold, "more than anyone else was responsible for the World War..." He also states that "It was the Russian mobilization that finally made the war inevitable."
It helps to bear in mind that the countdown to war started when Dimitrijevitch (Apis) planned, and carried out, the murder of the Austrian Archduke with the approval and help from the Russian Military Attache. It did NOT start with Austria's response!
The virtually certain consequences of the Serbian regicide against Austria were very well appreciated in 1914.
I believe what probably happened is as follows:
Isvolsky requested the post of ambassador to France for the purpose of promoting war with the Central Powers for the mutual benefit of France and Russia and, hopefully, Britain. When he learned in September of 1913 that the Austrian Crown Prince planned to visit Bosnia, he arranged with Russian ambassador Hartwig the appointment of the notorious assassin, Apis, as Chief of Serbian Military Intelligence.
On January 6, Isvolsky sent his famous telegram announcing Poincaré?s intention to visit Russia ?at the first opportunity? because if the planned assassination was successful, it would be necessary for Poincaré to see the Czar personally to be absolutely certain that France and Russia were on the same page. When Apis? murder plot proved successful, Isvolsky immediately departed for St. Petersburg in utmost secrecy. His purpose was to prepare the hesitant and irresolute Czar for Poincaré?s arrival and to insure a suitably firm Russian response to the Austro-Serbian crisis. (And, not incidentally, to exact a measure of revenge for the humiliation of 1908.)The die was irrevocably cast when Russia mobilized on July 30.
(While Nicholas Romanov approved of Russia?s military preparations and acquiesced all-to-easily to his subordinates, the best evidence indicates that he was probably ignorant of the Sarajevo murder plot.)
Peter
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 10, 2008 12:25 PM
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B&B,
I'm still in the process of reading your great links. A few things jump out
- Everyone seems to have acknowledged that Austria had every right to "severe" retribution.
- Serbia's refusal to investigate the Sarajevo murders was powerful proof of her complicity and an "insult" to Austria.
- Austria had made it very clear {to Serbia} that anything short of unconditional acceptance of the Note would be regarded as a refusal.
- Neither France, Russia, nor England made any effort to moderate Russia while Germany made strenuous efforts to moderate Austria.
- The order for Russian general mobilization was given with full knowledge of the consequences. It caught the Central Powers by complete surprise and was not objected to by either France or England.
These considerations point the finger of blame directly at the Triple Entente.
Peter
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 10, 2008 12:38 PM
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- Neither France, Russia, nor England made any effort to moderate Russia...
Russia made no effort to moderate Russia? Those ba$tard$! 
- The order for Russian general mobilization was given with full knowledge of the consequences. It caught the Central Powers by complete surprise
Can't have it both ways. If the Central Powers or more accurately Germany were warning Russia as specifically as you insist not to mobilize, they were clearly aware of the possibility.
Needless to say the actual communication from the German government to the Russian is nowhere near as specific as claimed. We're back once more to the suggestion that "real" policy is expressed through back-door communications between individuals.
This bit from the orginal post -
Preamble to the English Blue Book:
"No crime has ever aroused deeper or more general horror throughout Europe, none has ever been less justified. Austria was under provocation. She had to complain of a dangerous popular movement against her Government."
- is an excellent example of the sympathy Austria and her ally enjoyed in certain critical circles, until they squandered it.
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 10, 2008 3:51 PM
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Carronade,
I dont think I have ever seen anyone suggest Austria did not have a right to seek redress against Serbia on this site or others, all I have seen is people suggest it did not have to go as far as war, or that Austria should have moderated before going to war. Peter seems to miss that part, repeatedly.
Terry
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 10, 2008 4:16 PM
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This rather destroys Peters strange conspiricy notions, and seems to indicate you also accept that Austria played a willing and substantial part in starting the war.
The idea of a conspiracy is a separate issue from that of whether Austria played a ?substantial? role in the outbreak of the war. It was possible for one, the other, both or neither to have been true.
is an excellent example of the sympathy Austria and her ally enjoyed in certain critical circles, until they squandered it.
The Entente was quite sympathetic towards Austria. Until, of course, Austria undertook any tangible act in the protection of her own security. Then Austria would invariably be ?overreacting?.
If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that Austria could have gained more sympathy had she acted more quickly (as if Serbia didn?t have a 500,000 man army!), then I?d be interested to see the Russian documents showing where Sazonov could ever have colluded with Vienna to such an end.
I dont think I have ever seen anyone suggest Austria did not have a right to seek redress against Serbia on this site or others, all I have seen is people suggest it did not have to go as far as war.
Which places an artificial limit upon Austria?s options because Serbia and Russia could veto any significant Austrian proposal simply by threatening war. It is a dodge of the basic issue as to whether Austria had the right to correct Serbian behaviour. Back ?em or sack ?em is the old motto and in the current case it means that Austria either would have a blank cheque to root out the terrorists or she would not. In the event, she did not, and it took Europe about fifty years to recover from the collective error made in opposing Austria.
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 10, 2008 5:18 PM
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It was obvious Austria was not going to get a limited war with Serbia long before she declared it, this is where Austria gets blamed correctly for her role in causing the war.
Peter insists that Austria did nothing to cause the war, and that the entire thing was a conspiricy to allow the Entente to go to war with the Central Powers. This cannot be correct if Austria palyed any part in causing the war.
The Austrian role was certainly substantial, without her actions in late July there would have been no Russian mobilization even.
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 11, 2008 7:26 AM
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is an excellent example of the sympathy Austria and her ally enjoyed in certain critical circles, until they squandered it.
The Entente was quite sympathetic towards Austria. Until, of course, Austria undertook any tangible act in the protection of her own security. Then Austria would invariably be ?overreacting?.
If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that Austria could have gained more sympathy had she acted more quickly (as if Serbia didn?t have a 500,000 man army!), then I?d be interested to see the Russian documents showing where Sazonov could ever have colluded with Vienna to such an end.
Oddly enough I was thinking that British documents were primarily indicative of the British attitude. As we were recently reminded, the entente between the three disparate powers was not very robust; Britons were extremely reluctant to be dragged into war by Russia, over Serbia. The best way to cope with an alliance is to wedge it apart, and the issues in the crisis of 1914 were highly amenable to this, had Germany and Austria made the effort.
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Re: SERBIA: GUILTY IN 1914!
Nov 11, 2008 11:24 AM
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Peter insists that Austria did nothing to cause the war, and that the entire thing was a conspiracy to allow the Entente to go to war with the Central Powers
The Entente decisions after Austria declared war on Serbia are very difficult to distinguish from a Serbian pretext seeking war with Germany.
Oddly enough I was thinking that British documents were primarily indicative of the British attitude.
The British documents suggest the interpreation whereby Grey decieved Germany and Austria as to the real British position, and only ?threw off the mask? after Austria had taken a step that could not be retracted.
As we were recently reminded, the entente between the three disparate powers was not very robust; Britons were extremely reluctant to be dragged into war by Russia, over Serbia.
It is precisely because the British did not trust the Russians that Britain became willing to back Russia as far as Russia cared to go.
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