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Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 5, 2007 12:12 AM
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Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
Notice the 1st Amendment only applies to Congress! The myth of separation of church and state appears after a liberal supreme court misinterrupted the 1st amendment in a 5-4 vote in 1947 in the Supreme Court case of Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township
The Supreme Court has taken Jefferson's "separation" clause (divorced from Jefferson's own explanation of the phrase) and used it to create a new, and completely arbitrary, interpretation of the First Amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" had always meant that Congress was prohibited from establishing a national religious denomination, that Congress could not require that all Americans become Catholics, Anglicans, or members of any other denomination
James Madison (1751-1836) clearly articulated this when explaining the First Amendment's protection of religious liberty. He said that the First Amendment to the Constitution was prompted because "The people feared one sect might obtain a preeminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform."
When the First Amendment was passed it only had two purposes.
There would be no established, national church for the united thirteen states. To say it another way: there would be no "Church of the United States." The government is prohibited from setting up a state religion, such as Britain has, but no barriers will be erected against the practice of any religion. Thomas Jefferson's famous "wall of separation" between church and state comment was made in a letter to a group of Baptist clergymen January 1, 1802 in Danbury, Connecticut, who feared the Congregationalists Church would become the state-sponsored religion. Jefferson assured the Danbury Baptist Association that the First Amendment guaranteed that there would be no establishment of any one denomination over another. It was never intended for our governing bodies to be "separated" from Christianity and its principles. The "wall" was understood as one directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values. It keeps the government from running the church but makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government.
The second purpose of the First Amendment was the very opposite from what is being made of it today. It states expressly that government should not impede or interfere with the free practice of religion. The purpose of the separation of church and state in American society is not to exclude the voice of religion from public debate, but to provide a context of religious freedom where the insights of each religious tradition can be set forth and tested. As Justice Douglas wrote for the majority of the Supreme Court in the United States vs. Ballard case in 1944: The First Amendment has a dual aspect. It not only "forestalls compulsion by law of the acceptance of any creed or the practice of any form of worship" but also "safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion." The First Amendment was a safe-guard so that the State can have no jurisdiction over the Church. Its purpose was to protect the Church, not to disestablish it.
Moroever, if you read the orginal 13 state constitutions you will find the mention of God, Jesus, and Christains in everyone.
Additionally, you will find reference to Lord in the U.S. Constitution. In the Year of our Lord! And it also mentions Sundays as being a day of rest.
It is assumed that the United States was never Christian in its basic ideals and values because the Constitution does not specifically mention Christianity.
The Constitution is not devoid of Christian references, however. For example, the Constitution acknowledges Sunday as a day of rest: "If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law. . ." (Article I, section 7). Moreover, there is a direct reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in the Constitution: "DONE in convention by the unanimous consent of the States present, the seventeenth of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our Names."
It was never the purpose of the Constitution to give religious content to the nation, rather, the Constitution was an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated.
In response to a request that all reference to religion be removed from government, the House Judiciary Committee Report March 3, 1854 said:
"Had the people, during the Revolution, had any suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, the Revolution would have been strangled in the cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the Amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect. In this age there can be no substitute for Christianity. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. The great vital and conservative element in our system is the doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ."
John Quincy Adams, sixth president of the United States, said:
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
The facts nonetheless reveal the true convictions of our founders. Without question, they believed that although no one Christian denomination should dominate the nation, the principles of the Bible and Christianity should underlie our government and American education as well.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 8, 2007 6:55 AM
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italianprince,
I agree with what your saying. I actually wrote a paper on this topic in college, about how the first amendment is misinterpreted. This is not a new theory by any means though. I recommend you read a book written by roy clouser, the book is call " The Myth of Religious Neutrality." Basically Roy believes that the government cannot not be neutral when it comes to religion because it is an institution run by man and man is inherently religious. He argues that everyone is "religious" and that it effects every facet of human life.
Today however, people argue that the government can be neutral to religion and not support one or the other. This of course as we see is not true. Basically what we have now in the US is a secular (yes, its a form of religion) government imposing its ideas of how things should be but excluding every other idea, claiming its "religious." This is an augment several people are trying to make, one being Bill oreilly, but he calls these people secular progressives. While I do not agree with half of what oreilly says, I agree with this. However, this is NOT a new idea oreilly has come up with himself and in fact several brilliant theorists have written a lot of material on the subject.
I have noticed in a lot of your posts that you are a christian and thats fine. I am too. But remember its not about just having christianity but freedom of all religions.........its "justice" NOT "just us".........i have a feeling you are only thinking about having your faith represented........
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 8, 2007 8:14 AM
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the founding fathers were not christian and they did not want those values to be represented underlining the government..........show me a documnet, writing or quote showing the faith of the founding fatrhers......they were mostly diests.
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Edited by timhart2 at 04/17/2007 10:53 AM
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 9, 2007 4:50 PM
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> the founding fathers were not christian and they did
> not want those values to be represented underlining
> the government..........show me a documnet, writing
> or quote showing the faith of the founding
> fatrhers......they were mostly deists.
What is a 'deist'?
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 9, 2007 5:13 PM
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> italianprince,
>
> I also agree with what you're saying. I actually wrote > a diatribe on this topic in kindergarden, about how the
> first amendment is a mess.
> This is not a new theory by any means though.
> I recommend you read a book written by Henry Trouser, > called " The Myth of Religious Ambiguity." Basically > Henry believes that the government is silly.
> I will not bore you with it's contents: it deals with > normal every day subjects, rooted in religious >bigotry.
If only people would listen to demented God fearing people, then the pointless war in Iraq would not have happened.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 10, 2007 12:44 PM
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> the founding fathers were not christian and they did
> not want those values to be represented underlining
> the government..........show me a documnet, writing
> or quote showing the faith of the founding
> fatrhers......they were mostly deists.
The founding fathers were christains, out of 55 delegates 27 of them had seminary degreees and were ordained ministers, the rest were christians save two. Only two out of 55 weren't christains. Maybe you should trying actually reading History instead of tryig to re write it
The 1st Amendment proves they were! Notice freedom to preach (of speech), Freedom to attend church, (Assemble) freedom to print bibles, (press)
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Careful the toes you step on today will be attached to the tail you have to kiss tomorrow or Do unto others as you want them to do unto you!
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Edited by italianprince02 at 03/10/2007 12:46 PM
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 10, 2007 2:16 PM
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Chamberlain259 answered
"If only people would listen to demented God fearing people, then the pointless war in Iraq would not have happened."
What does that have to do with the 1st amendment?
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 10, 2007 5:02 PM
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Goat panties are sacred.
I believe so.
Deny me.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 10, 2007 5:17 PM
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>
> Deny me.
Why do you want me to deny you? It seems thats been done already!
Most people do not realize that the First Amendment says nothing about the "separation of church and state." It simply states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."
The concept of separation of church and state in our Constitution is not there to start with! And, the establishment or interference clause of the 1st Amendmets is to protect Americans from the government declaring one denomination the National religion (as it was in England). But seculist, in their desire to promote their secular humanist philosophy using the power of government, many liberals today want to alter America's heritage and remove religion from its history. Their desire is not to safeguard denominational neutrality by the state. It is to eradicate every vestige of religion from our public institutions.
In the 1892 Supreme Court ruling in Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S. (citing 87 precedents), "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." Throughout history, the U.S. Supreme Court continually cited previous cases in order to maintain our Christian Constitution. However, in 1962, for the first time in American history, the court cited no previous cases and ruled in Engel vs. Vitale that; because of Separation of Church and State, the government needed to be separated from Christian principles. So, the simple school prayer, "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee and we beg thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country" became unconstitutional and the eradication of Christianity from public institutions began.
Careful the toes you step on today will be attached to the tail you have to kiss tomorrow or Do unto others as you want them to do unto you!
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Edited by italianprince02 at 03/10/2007 5:24 PM
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Edited by italianprince02 at 03/10/2007 10:10 PM
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 11, 2007 11:07 AM
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I demolished you the last 3 times you spammed this topic, so you just wait another 2 months and post the same thing again. Let's go through the proccess of pointing out the obvious, yet again.
>>It was never intended for our governing bodies to be "separated" from Christianity and its principles.
I think that's what a wall of seperation implies, smart guy.
>>The "wall" was understood as one directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state.
Walls aren't one way.
You say there are two aspects to the seperation of church and state, but now you're saying there's only one. Sorry, there are two, even if you want to pretend like the part about not respecting an establishment of religion doens't exist. Walls work two ways.
>>The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values. It keeps the government from running the church but makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government.
The church is free to teach the people biblical values, but nothing in the constitution says that Christian principles will stay in government.
>>The second purpose of the First Amendment was the very opposite from what is being made of it today. It states expressly that government should not impede or interfere with the free practice of religion. The purpose of the separation of church and state in American society is not to exclude the voice of religion from public debate, but to provide a context of religious freedom where the insights of each religious tradition can be set forth and tested. As Justice Douglas wrote for the majority of the Supreme Court in the United States vs. Ballard case in 1944: The First Amendment has a dual aspect. It not only "forestalls compulsion by law of the acceptance of any creed or the practice of any form of worship" but also "safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion." The First Amendment was a safe-guard so that the State can have no jurisdiction over the Church. Its purpose was to protect the Church, not to disestablish it.
You are right, but no one has suggested disestablishing the church of banning it from public debate. You are manufacturing opponents that are easier to criticize.
>>The Constitution is not devoid of Christian references, however. For example, the Constitution acknowledges Sunday as a day of rest: "If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law. . ." (Article I, section 7). Moreover, there is a direct reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in the Constitution: "DONE in convention by the unanimous consent of the States present, the seventeenth of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our Names."
Yes, but those are aspects of culture, not of religion. Federal employees get sundays off and Christmas is a federal holiday. Very few people take issue with that.
If the founding fathers had intended the establishment clause to imply only to Christian sects, then they would have said that. Even in those days they were not so ignorent to think that the word "religion" was equivelent to "Christianity". If that's what they ment, then that's what they would have said.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 11, 2007 11:11 AM
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>>The founding fathers were christains, out of 55 delegates 27 of them had seminary degreees and were ordained ministers, the rest were christians save two. Only two out of 55 weren't christains. Maybe you should trying actually reading History instead of tryig to re write it
You've brought this "fact" up dozens of times and every time I point out quotes from the founding fathers saying that they thought Christianity was evil and dangerous. It is well accepted among historians that very few of the founding fathers were Christians. Most were diests.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 11, 2007 11:23 AM
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> the founding fathers were not christian and they did
> not want those values to be represented underlining
> the government..........show me a documnet, writing
> or quote showing the faith of the founding
> fatrhers......they were mostly deists.
Most of the FFs were Christian; however, the principles of government upon which the Constitution is based came from philosophies that were mainly espoused by Deists such as Thomas Hobbes and John Locke.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 11, 2007 7:44 PM
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> > the founding fathers were not christian and they
> did
> > not want those values to be represented
> underlining
> > the government..........show me a documnet,
> writing
> > or quote showing the faith of the founding
> > fatrhers......they were mostly deists.
>
> Most of the FFs were Christian; however, the
> principles of government upon which the Constitution
> is based came from philosophies that were mainly
> espoused by Deists such as Thomas Hobbes and John
> Locke.
If 99 per cent of our fouding fathers were christains then why in the world would they used deists teachings? Hellooooooooooooooooooo...
Try again use facts this time.
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Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 11, 2007 7:45 PM
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> >>The founding fathers were christains, out of 55
> delegates 27 of them had seminary degreees and were
> ordained ministers, the rest were christians save
> two. Only two out of 55 weren't christains. Maybe you
> should trying actually reading History instead of
> tryig to re write it
>
> You've brought this "fact" up dozens of times and
> every time I point out quotes from the founding
> fathers saying that they thought Christianity was
> evil and dangerous. It is well accepted among
> historians that very few of the founding fathers were
> Christians. Most were diests.
Yes like this one
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
Oh not to mentiGeorge Washington,
"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson
"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge
"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." -- George Washington in his Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress.
"Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."--George Washington, ca. 1789, Maxims of Washington, ed. John F. Schroeder (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, 1942), p. 106.
"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." General George Washington, July 9, 1776
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." From President George Washington's Farewell Address
John Adams,
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President Adams, July 4, 1821
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." -- John Adams in letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams from his Oct. 13, 1789 address to the military.
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756.
"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796.
"A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society? ...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776.
"...a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776.
"The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people. Trust in Him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776.
"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, dated June 21, 1776.
"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters,ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40.
Thomas Jefferson,
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson
"Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson To William Canby, 1813
"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..." President Thomas Jefferson
“I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, better husbands... the Bible makes the best people in the world." President Thomas Jefferson
"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—" Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush On April 21, 1803
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a cisciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator." Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible.
James Madison,
"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison
"While we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe, the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to them whose minds have not yielded to the evidence which has convinced us." James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance (Massachusetts: Isaiah Thomas, 1786). This can be found in numerous documentary histories and other resources.
The religion of divine origin was obviously Christianity, of which Madison said he was convinced.
"Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it." James Madison response to an essay/sermon by Reverend Jasper Adams. Religion and Politics in the Early Republic: Jasper Adams and the Church-State Debate, Daniel L. Dreisbach, ed. (Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1996), p. 117.
"Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other." James Madison, ca. 1789, cited in Gaillard Hunt, James Madison and Religious Liberty (Washington: American Historical Association, Government Printing Office, 1902), p. 166.
James Monroe,
"The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good." March 5, 1821 in his Second Inaugural Address
John Quincy Adams,
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." President John Quincy Adams
"My custom is to read four or five chapters of the Bible every morning immediately after rising... It seems to me the most suitable manner of beginning the day... It is an invaluable and inexhaustible mine of knowledge and virtue." President John Quincy Adams
Andrew Jackson,
"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." President Andrew Jackson
Abraham Lincoln,
America’s sixteenth president, who died on a Good Friday, was a devoted Bible reader but never joined a church. In a youth of near poverty, the Bible was one of the few books Lincoln owned. When he became president, its words and phrases found their way into many of his speeches.
Earlier, a broken engagement had caused him much pain, and Lincoln declared that his Bible was "the best cure for the blues." Lincoln also said that "this Great Book is the best gill God has given to man." When his wife, Mary, urged harsh measures for the defeated Confederacy, Lincoln quoted Jesus’ words to her, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book.
“I am profitably engaged in reading the Bible. Take all of this Book upon reason that you can, and the balance by faith, and you will live and die a better man."
Lincoln’s famous words, speaking of the slavery issue in America, were, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." He was quoting from Luke 11:17, in which Jesus’ enemies claimed Jesus could cast out demons because He was in league with the devil himself Jesus replied, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth" (KJV)
President Lincoln, a devoted Bible reader, claimed the Bible moved him to issue his Emancipation Proclamation, freeing America’s slaves, in 1863. He noted especially the words of Exodus 6:5: "I [God] have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage" (KJV).
Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address
"Fellow countrymen: At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first...The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured...
"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and as a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other...The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully...If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?
Fondly do we hope - fervently do we pray - that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'The judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'
"With malice toward none; charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan - to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations." Immediately afterwards, Lincoln kissed the Bible, bowed, and retired from the platform. Abraham Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address, March 4th, 1865.
"Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty".
"The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next."
"The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and
on these
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Careful the toes you step on today will be attached to the tail you have to kiss tomorrow or Do unto others as you want them to do unto you!
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Edited by italianprince02 at 03/11/2007 7:49 PM
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Posts:
830
From:
Renton, WA
Registered:
7/6/06
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(15 of 100)
Re: Myth of Separation of Church and State
Mar 11, 2007 8:50 PM
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> If 99 per cent of our fouding fathers were christains
> then why in the world would they used deists
> teachings? Hellooooooooooooooooooo...
>
> Try again use facts this time.
I only post comments using facts. You, on the other hand, post quotes willy nilly without understanding the context in which those quotes were made. If you would read a few books based on the founding of this nation you would know that. Hell, if you had actually listened during high school government class, you would know that the basic principles upon which this nation was founded came from John Locke, Montesquieu, Thomas Hobbes and others who were Deists.
Our founding fathers for the most part were men of Christian principles, I don't dispute that. What I know, and you refuse to research is that these men did not want a government that influenced religion, nor did they want religion to influence government.
By the way, Patrick Henry vociferously opposed the Constitution during the ratification convention of Virginia. So, your quote of him is moot.
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