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One fitting tribute to Reagan
Jun 12, 2004 12:25 PM
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Is CVN 76, all 95,000 tons of her. Somehow I get the feeling that he would have liked that.
While a Naval purist, I was never in favor a naming Carriers after Great Americans, but as time has passed, I like the sound of Lincoln, Truman, and Reagan. Makes me damn proud actually.
" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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(2 of 59)
Re: One fitting tribute to Reagan
Jun 12, 2004 12:41 PM
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>While a Naval purist, I was never in favor a naming Carriers after Great Americans, but as time has passed, I like the sound of Lincoln, Truman, and Reagan. Makes me damn proud actually. >
Same here. Did you know though that CVN-76 was supposed to be named UNITED STATES after CONSTITUTION's sister? Or CVN-77 (GHW BUSH) was supposed to carry the honored name LEXINGTON? (Why is HE getting a carrier anyway?)
In our rush to honor Presidents, let's not forget the established and honored names. Here's an idea, let's resurrect one other old name, another CONSTITUTION sister to honor all the presidents - USS PRESIDENT.
Incidentally, USS RONALD REAGAN's skipper took part in the final ceremonies at the Library. He was the naval officer who presented the casket flag to Nancy. Another flag is enroute to the Library from the REAGAN, it was flown over the ship during a memorial service aboard her on Friday.
Media editorial guidelines - "Downplay the good, hammer the bad. Run the Abu Ghraib story on the front page for three weeks. Bury the Nick Berg story after one day. Ignore the Sarin and mustard gas finds. If the story will help Bush, bury it. If it will hurt Bush, run it day after day and to hell with the consequences."
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715
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(3 of 59)
Re: One fitting tribute to Reagan
Jun 12, 2004 1:12 PM
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How about the USS Alzheimer?
"Fool me once, shame on ? shame on you. Fool me ? you can't get fooled
again" ? George W. Bush
"Then you wake up at the high school level and find out that the illiteracy level of our children are appalling." ? George W. Bush
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Lake Pend O'reille
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(4 of 59)
Re: One fitting tribute to Reagan
Jun 12, 2004 1:13 PM
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I also would like to see some tradition in the naming of carriers. I can live with the Reagan but it does make me gag a bit. However rightly or wrongly Reagan did spend a ton of money increasing the size of the Navy. Really the most important service as far as I'm concerned due to the never ending need to protect trade routes. He could have saved a bundle by leaving the battleships in mothballs though, as much as I loved seeing the Missouri running again.
The Bush should have been kept the Lexington. I didn't know that was the original designation. He was a Navy pilot so there was some justification.
All in all, why can't we wait until they are dead to name ships after them?
I was wondering who that was handing her the flag. I read who he was in the paper today. I guess that was the flag that was flying on the ship at the time of his death. I'm sure she is very proud to have it.
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(5 of 59)
Jun 12, 2004 1:34 PM
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Hornet and Wasp
" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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Navy is most important service?
Jun 12, 2004 2:07 PM
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First off I realize two things - OldSailor is gonna kill me for this, and I am a biased opinion seeing as though I am training to join the USAF.
But I have to say that the Air Force, of any nation, is the most important service. No country has ever, in the history of aerial combat, lost a war from combat at arms while maintaining air superiority or supremacy. The latter is extremely difficult to acheive and very rare. Although battles have been lost while still maintaining air superiority (German attack on the Soviet Union in WWII), the victor by combat of arms in every war since 1914 has had control of the air. The only thing keeping NAZI Germany in the war for so long on the Eastern front was the Luftwaffe and when the Soviets got their own Air Force going, it paved the way for the tremendous gains on the ground. The reason that the Soviets won was not because of her troops on the ground but because of the battles in the sky. Incompetence on the part of Hitler (a politician who tried to run the military - never works) led to the Luftwaffe not being able to effectively carry out their mission. The failure of the Luftwaffe (due to Hitler), led to the failure of the German armies in the ground.
That example is just one of the many highlighted in "The Air Campaign" by Col. John Warden, III USAF. I suggest to everyone that they read it - its an excellent book.
LP Underground - Son of America - Irish Republican Army - Child of the KoRn
I push my fingers into my eyes / It's the only thing that slowly stops the ache / Jesus, it never ends, it works it's way inside / If the pain goes on, I'm not gonna make it! Slipknot - Duality
You shouldn't wall us up with your apathy / But you did and now you're only growing enemies / This is the catalyst, the alpha, the first breed / Cause you made damn sure, now we're everything / Discarded, Retarded... Slipknot - Welcome
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(7 of 59)
Jun 12, 2004 2:16 PM
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In a specific combat theater, I would agree that yes, the Air Force is the most important service. The capability to dominate the sky opens up limitless options and oppurtunities for the flexible fighting force.
However, globally, on the world level, I would argue that the Navy is the most important service, permitting the United States to project its force in any location around the world. A USN carrier group is the most fearsome force on the face of the Earth. Having one of those sit on the horizon will make anyone think twice about what they're doing.
Freedom - An American Tradition
Son of America
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(8 of 59)
Jun 12, 2004 2:29 PM
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One cannot downplay the importance of air superiority, nor supremacy. But in the end an Army fights on its stomach, making logistics the most important factor, and the Navy indeed "hauls ass". All are important, and I do not believe any branch of the service is more "important" than another.
But, if "Power" is to be projected, nothing quite gets is done like a Carrier Battle Group, with a Marine Deployment Force in reserve.
The Navy can achieve air superiority, and the Air Force cannot really secure sea lanes, but on the other hand the Air Force can wind-up a few more ICBM's than we can.
Maybe the British know this best Falcon, afterall they have never changed the words of Britannia to rule the "skies" instead of the "waves".
I expect no less from you with your pride in your branch of service. But gives us old sea dogs our due eh?
" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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Jun 12, 2004 2:46 PM
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While I agree with the Carrier Battle Group, one does need to keep them safe out in the blue water.
The real deal was always when a Battleship came lumbering up, a little closer to shore, trained those 18 inch rifles around, and delivered a full broadside. Outdated perhaps, but a statement of vast proportions. Heck one can smell the cordite, and it sends shivers down the spines of all real sailors.
My father spent some time on the gunline in Vietnam in Destroyers, and one his second tour was an escort to the Missouri (if I recall). As Fire Control Chief aboard USS Towers, they got a call from some Marines requesting Naval Gunfire Support. They were told that something a little bigger would be coming over. My dad often spoke about the expressions those Marines had when the Mighty Mo sent over a salvo. One can imagine the words they used. All the VC learned is that they would have to dig deeper tunnels, much deeper.
Later
" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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The only problem is that...
Jun 12, 2004 2:49 PM
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... all the battleships have been decommissioned. 
Freedom - An American Tradition
Son of America
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(11 of 59)
Thats why I said "sad" amigo. n/t
Jun 12, 2004 3:00 PM
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" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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(12 of 59)
Jun 12, 2004 3:03 PM
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Got ya. 
Freedom - An American Tradition
Son of America
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(13 of 59)
Re: One fitting tribute to Reagan
Jun 12, 2004 3:14 PM
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>He could have saved a bundle by leaving the battleships in mothballs though, as much as I loved seeing the Missouri running again.>
He could have, they were hellishly expensive to run. But they were brought out and updated somewhat as part of the drive to counter the Soviets everywhere as the centerpieces of what were then called Surface Action Groups, intended to take some of the load off the limited number of carrier groups. The idea is still around, but uses sets of AEGIS cruisers and destroyers with dozens of cruise missiles in each.
The battleships were very handy to have around if only for their intimidation factor. With all those guns bristling from them they even LOOK dangerous, and the armor would protect them against any conventional missile you could shoot at them. The Iraqi's during Desert Storm would see either MISSOURI or WISCONSIN appear on the horizon and decide they had better places to be. I saw video taken from a WISCONSIN spotter drone of the drone overflying Iraqi positions in Kuwait. The Iraqi's saw the drone and instead of trying to shoot it down they threw down their weapons and tried to surrender.
Even today, the only modern weapons that I would guarantee would stop a battleship would be torpedos detonating under the keel or a direct hit with a tactical nuke. Just about anything less would just make her mad.
And I have to point out that while those would probably stop her, she could survive even a nuke near miss. The WWI era battleship NEVADA not only survived Pearl Harbor to dish it back at both Normandy and in the Pacific, she SURVIVED two nuclear tests at Bikini. After the second test she was towed about 2000 miles back to Pearl and drydocked for survey. She was battered and bent, but not broken and the opinion was published that most of her crew would likely have survived either of the tests if they were inside the ship and not on deck outside. Most of the battleships and cruisers survived the first test and several the second as well, at least lasting long enough that a crew could get off. The German heavy cruiser PRINZ EUGEN survived both tests, and was enroute to Pearl under tow when she began taking water and capsized. She's still there at Kwajalein Atoll, upside down with her stern above water.
After 2 nukes though NEVADA was too "hot" to keep and was towed to a spot in deep water off the Hawaiian island of Kahoolawe (Navy weapons range), placed on a deep sea anchor and used as an aircraft target for some time, soaking up bombs and bullets and torpedos.
That's one tough old broad, and a direct ancestor of the IOWA's.
>All in all, why can't we wait until they are dead to name ships after them?>
I don't know. In sea lore it used to be considered "bad luck" to name a ship after a living person just as it is considered "bad luck" to change her name after her formal christening and naming at launch.
>I was wondering who that was handing her the flag. I read who he was in the paper today. I guess that was the flag that was flying on the ship at the time of his death. I'm sure she is very proud to have it.>
That would be fitting, a set of Colors flown while the ship was underway. But the timing was wrong for that.
The flag on his casket was placed there the day he was put in it. The flag I referred to from REAGAN flew over the ship on Friday, during his funeral I believe. The ship is in Rio de Janeiro for a port call while enroute to her new homeport of (I think) San Diego. The Captain flew to California earlier, the flag will be sent separately.
Take care Randy.
Media editorial guidelines - "Downplay the good, hammer the bad. Run the Abu Ghraib story on the front page for three weeks. Bury the Nick Berg story after one day. Ignore the Sarin and mustard gas finds. If the story will help Bush, bury it. If it will hurt Bush, run it day after day and to hell with the consequences."
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(14 of 59)
Jun 12, 2004 3:52 PM
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I would never take away the deserved glory of the Navy. You boys have more than a few times proven your worth as an invaluable service to the United States armed forces. The Battles of Midway and Coral Sea come to mind right away.
"All are important, and I do not believe any branch of the service is more "important" than another."
Absolutely. I can only imagine what the fighting among the branches is like in the real military but ROTC is bad enough. I know plenty of Army ROTC kids and fellow USAF cadets who really didn't like each other simply because they were in other branches. Never quite understood the inter-branch rivalry.
"But, if "Power" is to be projected, nothing quite gets is done like a Carrier Battle Group, with a Marine Deployment Force in reserve."
If power is what you want, check out the A/C-130 Spectre Gunship, which I will hopefully *crosses fingers* be flying in 5 years after flight school. Its on-board Vulcan cannon can fire 120 rounds PER SECOND! Damn, how is that even possible? :D. Although they have been used somewhat rarely in the past two wars (Iraq and Afghanistan), the Gunship is my first choice and the F/A-22 Raptor is my second.
Of course, I gotta pass flight school first...
Take care.
LP Underground - Son of America - Irish Republican Army - Child of the KoRn
I push my fingers into my eyes / It's the only thing that slowly stops the ache / Jesus, it never ends, it works it's way inside / If the pain goes on, I'm not gonna make it! Slipknot - Duality
You shouldn't wall us up with your apathy / But you did and now you're only growing enemies / This is the catalyst, the alpha, the first breed / Cause you made damn sure, now we're everything / Discarded, Retarded... Slipknot - Welcome
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(15 of 59)
Jun 12, 2004 3:55 PM
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The sight of a B-2 Spirit bomber headed in my direction is a little scarier than a Carrier Battle Group - just my humble opinion though, :D.
LP Underground - Son of America - Irish Republican Army - Child of the KoRn
I push my fingers into my eyes / It's the only thing that slowly stops the ache / Jesus, it never ends, it works it's way inside / If the pain goes on, I'm not gonna make it! Slipknot - Duality
You shouldn't wall us up with your apathy / But you did and now you're only growing enemies / This is the catalyst, the alpha, the first breed / Cause you made damn sure, now we're everything / Discarded, Retarded... Slipknot - Welcome
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