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Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 21, 2009 11:46 AM
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I am trying to get a handle on concepts of Buddhism. If Buddha is not divine and Buddhism rejects God/Gods, to whom do Buddhist pray?
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 21, 2009 2:13 PM
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Dr Praetorius,
I've been reading about Buddhism too, and trying to sort it out. I have a theory that "Book Buddhism" is different than the Buddhism practiced by common people.
Like for example.... Books about Buddhism teach about Nirvana (the end of rebirths). But according to one article I read, ordinary Buddhists (like, rice farmers) never talk about Nirvana and never think about it. They hope someday that they will go to heaven or have a happy rebirth. That's it.
Likewise, books say that Buddha is not a god. Buddha himself said, "Each person must reach Nirvana by his own efforts," etc. The statues of Buddha are supposed to symbolize his teachings, and bowing to them shows that you honor the teachings, period. -- But almost all Buddists (again, like rice farmers) seem to pray to various gods and put their faith in Buddha. For example, I read about a Burmese Buddhist who lost a couple family members in a natural disaster. He said, "I no longer believe in Buddha." You see? He expected Buddha to keep them safe. When they died, he lost "faith" in Buddha.
And what about "Amitabha" (or, Amida Buddha), the Buddha of Infinite Light? There are Buddhists who believe that by repeating his name, they will go to the Pure Land. -- The idea that you can be saved through devotional faith is a very Hindu idea. Buddhists aren't supposed to do that.
So regardless of what the books say, it's my impression that common Buddhists say prayers, have faith in gods or Buddhas, look forward to heaven (not Nirvana), etc.
When we study Buddhism, we are learning what the monks learn. Common people don't know that stuff.
BUT I am not sure. I wish some of the Buddhists who used to post here would come back. I'd love to see their answers.
peaceful1
P.S. If you want to agree with me on a certain book, we can both read it together, and discuss it. Maybe something online?
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 21, 2009 3:38 PM
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p1
Other viewpoints on the teachings of the Buddha:
Believe nothing, o monks,
merely because you have been told it ...
or because it is traditional,
or because you yourselves have imagined it.
Do not believe what your teacher tells you
merely out of respect for the teacher.
But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis,
you find to be conducive to the good,
the benefit, the welfare of all beings ³
that doctrine believe and cling to,
and take it as your guide.
- Gautama Buddha
For more on his teachings see:
http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/buddhism.html
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/buddhism_atheism.html
Tellurian
--
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the ruler as useful" Seneca the Younger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkGpO1lQrLY&feature=related
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647
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 21, 2009 4:51 PM
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Yes, Tell, that's so cool, Buddha told people to TEST his teachings. I love that.
peaceful1
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 21, 2009 5:01 PM
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Here's some basic information on Buddhism I found at sacred-texts.com. This Olcott lived in what we now call Sri Lanka and converted to Buddhism and set about translating texts in teh late 1800s; he was a founder of Theosophy as well.
The Buddhist Catechism, by Henry S. Olcott [1908], at sacred-texts.com
p. xvi p. 1
THE
BUDDHIST CATECHISM.
PART I.
THE LIFE OF THE BUDDHA.
1. Question. Of what religion * are you?
Answer. The Buddhist.
2. Q. What is Buddhism?
A. It is a body of teachings given out by the great personage known as the Buddha.
3. Q. Is 'Buddhism' the best name for this teaching?
A. No; that is only a western term: the best name for it is Bauddha Dharma.
4. Q. Would you call a person a Buddhist who had merely been born of Buddhist parents?
A. Certainly not. A Buddhist is one who not only professes belief in the Buddha as the noblest of Teachers, in the Doctrine preached by Him, and in the Brotherhood of Arahats, but also practises His precepts in daily life
7. Q. When was this doctrine first preached?
A. There is some disagreement as to the actual
date, but according to the Sinhalese Scriptures it was in the year 2513 of the (present) Kali-Yuga.
8. Q. Give the important dates in the last birth of the Founder.
A. He was born under the constellation Visā on a Tuesday in May, in the year 2478 (K.Y.); he retired to the jungle in the year 2506; became Buddha in 2513; and passing out of the round of re-births entered Parinirvāṇa in the year 2558, aged eighty years. Each of these events happened on a day of full-moon, so all are conjointly celebrated in the great festival of the full-moon of the month Wesak (Vaisakha), corresponding to the month of May.
9. Q. Was the Buddha God?
A. No. Buddha Dharma teaches no "divine" incarnation.
10. Q. Was he a man?
A. Yes; but the wisest, noblest and most holy being who had developed himself in the course of countless births far beyond all other beings, the previous Buddhas alone excepted.
11. Q. Were there other Buddhas before him?
A. Yes; as will be explained later on.
12. Q. Was Buddha his name?
A. No. It is the name of a condition or state of mind, of the mind after it has reached the culmination of development.
13, Q. What is its meaning?
A. Enlightened; or, he who has the all-perfect wisdom. The Pālī phrase is Sabbannu, the One of Boundless Knowledge. In Samskrit it is Sarvajńa.
14, Q. What was the Buddha's real name, then?
A. Siddhartha was his royal name, and Gautama, or Gotama, his family name. He was Prince of Kapilavastu and belonged to the illustrious family of the Okkāka, of the Solar race.
I've deleted some less-important items of the first 14, but it continues in this vein for many, many pages. It explains many things about Buddhism.
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 23, 2009 10:12 AM
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Thank you, beenherebefore, for the outstanding link.
I've been hoping that Dr.Praetorius would come back and answer my request, but since he hasn't, and time is passing,
I'll just make a plan and abide by it. And if ANYONE wants to talk with me about ANY text, I would welcome the discussion.
If not, well, at least I'll be learning something.
Here is my plan.
Going to the url you gave us (thank you), I'll start at the TOP of the list of Buddhist scriptures and work my way straight down to the bottom. Simple.
I'll try to read two pages a day. Just two. So I can think about them.
And if I get a chance, I'll make a little post right here about what I've read.
Here is the link again:
===========================================
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm
Buddhism. Sacred Texts.
===========================================
Today is day #1. The first book on the list is The Gospel of Buddha: Compiled from Ancient Records, by Paul Carus. I won't count the title page and the preface. The first readings are "The Disciple Speaks" and "Samsara and Nirvana."
At this slow pace, it should take about 6 weeks just to finish the first book, but if Dr.Praetorius comes back & wants to suggest another plan, that would be fine.
peaceful1
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689
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Illinois
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(7 of 31)
Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 23, 2009 12:05 PM
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I think it's a wonderful idea, Peace! I doubt, however, given my hectic schedule that I'll be able to keep up with you, but I'll give it a try. ;^)
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(8 of 31)
Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 23, 2009 6:37 PM
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My favorite quote from today's reading is actually from the Preface of Dr. Paul Carus' book --
"Lest the fundamental idea of the Buddha's doctrines be misunderstood, the reader is warned to take the term 'self' in the sense in which the Buddha uses it. . . . .
The Buddha denies the existence of a 'self' as it was commonly understood in his time; he does not deny man's mentality, his spiritual constitution, the importance of his personality, in a word, his soul. But he does deny the mysterious ego-entity, the atman, in the sense of a kind of soul-nomad which by some schools was supposed to reside behind or within man's bodily and psychical activity as a distinct being, a kind of thing-in-itself, and a metaphysical agent assumed to be the soul.
Buddhism is monistic. It claims that man's soul does not consist of two things, of an atman (self) and of a manas (mind or thoughts), but that there is one reality, our thoughts, our mind or manas, and this manas constitutes the soul. . . .
Accordingly, the translation of atman by 'soul', which would imply that the Buddha denied the existence of the soul, is extremely misleading. Representative Buddhists, of different schools and of various countries, acknowledge the correctness of the view here taken, and we emphasize especially the assent of Southern Buddhists because they have preserved the tradition most faithfully and are very punctilious in the statement of doctrinal points.
The Buddhist, the Organ of the Southern Church of Buddhism, writes in a review of The Gospel of Buddha:
'The eminent feature of the work is its grasp of the difficult subject and the clear enunciation of the doctrine of the most puzzling problem of atman, as taught in Buddhism. So far as we have examined the question of atman ourselves from the works of the Southern canon, the view taken by Dr. Paul Carus is accurate, and we venture to think that it is not opposed to the doctrine of Northern Buddhism.'
. . . . The Buddha puroposes to cut off entirely all thought of self, so that it will no longer bear fruit. Thus Nirvana is an ideal state, in which man's soul, after being cleansed from all selfishness, hatred and lust, has become a habitation of the truth, teaching him to distrust the allurements of pleasure and to confine all his energies to attending to the duties of life."
(end of quote)
Today's chapters were poetic and reminded me of the Bible. -- The Preface says that the first three chapters and the last three chapters of Carus' book summarize the spirit of Buddhism.
The rest of the book is translated from Buddhist scriptures.
peaceful1
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 23, 2009 9:21 PM
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p1
>> he does deny the mysterious ego-entity, the atman<<
The Buddha definitely rejected the existence of the atman, or soul. That is one of the major differences between Hinduism and Buddhism. Hindus accepted the concept of the atman, while the Buddha taught the concept of anatta, which was no-soul. The following is story of the Buddha is told in the Anattalakkhana Sutra:
Anattalakkhana Sutta
Thus have I heard: The Exalted One was at one time residing at Benares in the Deer Park at Isipatana. There the Exalted One addressed the group of five monks saying: "Monks," and they replied to Him, "Venerable Sir"
Then the Exalted One said:
"Form (rupa or matter) is not soul (anatta). If form, monks, were soul, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one would be able to say, 'Let my form be thus. Let my form not be thus.' But since form is not soul, so it leads to affliction, and no one can say 'Let my form be thus. Let my form be not thus."
"Feeling (vedana) is not soul. If feeling, monks, were soul, then this feeling would not lead to affliction, and one would be able to say, 'Let my feeling be thus. Let my feeling not be thus.' But since feeling is not soul, so it leads to affliction, and no one can say 'Let my feeling be thus. Let my feeling not be thus."
"Perception (sanna) is not soul. If perception, monks, were soul, then this perception would not lead to affliction, and one would be able to say, 'Let my perception be thus. Let my perception not be thus.' But since perception is not soul, so it leads to affliction, and no one can say, 'Let my perception be thus. Let my perception not be thus."
"Mental formations (sankharas) are not soul. If mental formations, monks, were soul, then these mental formations would not lead to affliction, and one would be able to say, 'Let my mental formations be thus. Let my mental formations not be thus.' But since mental formations are not soul, so they lead to affliction, and no one can say, 'Let my mental formations be thus. Let my mental formations not be thus."
"Consciousness (vinnana) is not soul. If consciousness, monks, were soul, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one would be able to say 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But since consciousness is not soul, so it leads to affliction, and no one can say 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus."
"Monks, what do you think? Is form permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent, Venerable Sir."
"Now what is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory (dukkha) or satisfactory (sukha)?"
"Unsatisfactory Venerable Sir"
"Now what is impermanent, what is unsatisfactory, what is transitory - is it fit to be perceived thus: 'This is mine; this is I; this is my soul'?"
"No, Venerable Sir"
"Monks, what do you think? Is feeling permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent, Venerable Sir"
"Now what is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory or satisfactory!"
"Unsatisfactory, Venerable Sir"
"Now what is impermanent, what is unsatisfactory what is transitory - is it fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine. This is I. This is my soul?"
"No, Venerable Sir"
"Monks, what do you think? Is perception permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent, Venerable Sir."
"Now what is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"
"Unsatisfactory Venerable Sir "
"Now what is impermanent, what is unsatisfactory what is transitory - is it fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine. This is I. This is my soul?"
"No, Venerable Sir"
"Monks, what do you think? Are mental formations permanent or impermanent."
"Impermanent, Venerable Sir "
"Now what is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"
"Unsatisfactory, Venerable Sir."
"Now what is impermanent, what is unsatisfactory what is transitory - is it ft to be regarded thus: 'This is mine. This is I. This is my soul"
"No, Venerable Sir."
"Monks, what do you think? Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent, Venerable Sir "
"Now what is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"
"Unsatisfactory, Venerable Sir"
"Now what is impermanent, what is unsatisfactory, what is transitory is it fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine. This is I. This is my soul'?"
"No, Venerable Sir."
"So, monks, whatever perception, whether past, future, or present: whether gross or subtle; whether in oneself or in others; whether inferior or superior; whether far or near; must with right understanding of things as they really are, be regarded thus:
'This is not mine. This is not I. This is not my soul."
"So, monks, whatever mental formations, whether past, future, or present; whether gross or subtle; whether in oneself or in others; whether inferior or superior; whether far or near; must, with right understanding of things as they really are. be regarded thus: 'This is not mine. This is not I.
This is not my soul."
"So, monks, whatever consciousness, whether past, future, or present; whether gross or subtle; whether in oneself or in others; whether inferior or superior: whether far or near; must, with right understanding of things as they really are, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine. This is not I. This is not my soul. "
"Seeing thus, monks, the learned disciple of the Noble Ones becomes weary of form, weary also of feelings, weary also of perception, weary also of mental formations, and weary also of consciousness. Being weary, he becomes detached; being detached, he becomes free; being free, the knowledge arises, 'I am free."
"And he knows, 'Rebirth is no more; I have finished practicing the life of purity; done is what should be done; of this there is no more beyond."
This is what the Exalted One said. Delighted, the group of five monks rejoiced at the Exalted One's words.
And while this discourse was being given, the minds of the group of five monks were liberated from defilements through clinging no more.
I guess that was a bit long.
Tellurian
--
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the ruler as useful" Seneca the Younger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtISyZYW5fY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkGpO1lQrLY&feature=related
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 24, 2009 2:35 PM
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Hi Tell,
It wasn't too long, it was good. But did you notice in the preface to Carus' book, it refers to atman as a "difficult subject" and a "most puzzling problem"?
I'm glad if you understand it but it's going to take me some time. The descriptions I've seen are hard to piece together. One source seems to say that we have no personal existence after death; another source says we certainly do. -- I wonder. -- What about this:
We know that we are constantly changing. From moment to moment, millions of cells are changing in our bodies and in our brains, many are dying, and new ones are formed. Changes occur all the time in our bodies and our mind. We are like "fire" which changes from moment to moment.
But there is continuity in fire too. And even though I'm composed of different cells than the cells which composed me 10 years ago, I am still the same person.
Well, I'll let the subject go since it's obviously over my head.
peaceful1
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(11 of 31)
Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 24, 2009 3:00 PM
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My favorite quote from today's reading is from the chapter on "Truth" --
"There is no evil but what flows from self. There is no wrong but what is done by the assertion of self. Self is the beginning of all hatred, of iniquity and slander, of impudence and indecency, of theft and robbery, of oppression and bloodshed. "
Now if he had said selfishness then it would be easier to understand. But he said self.
So I have to think about it.
Here's another good quote, about a person who is enlightened --
"He conquers, although he may be wounded; he is glorious and happy, although he may suffer; he is strong, although he may break down under the burden of his work; he is immortal, although he will die."
The chapter on Buddha's birth has similarities to Jesus' birth. Since Buddha was born 500 years or so before Jesus, this makes one wonder if some borrowing took place.
For example, an old seer wept and sighed, and prophesied, when he saw the newborn baby. He said, "I am old. For now my end is coming on and I shall not see the glory of this babe. For this son of thine will rule the world. The wheel of empire will come to him. He will either be a king of kings to govern all the lands of the earth, or verily will become an elightened one. He is born for the sake of everything that lives." (This sounds similar to the old prophet Simeon, who saw the baby Jesus, and prophesied).
Also, it says, "the Naga kings" went to honor and greet the baby. "They scattered before him mandara flowers, rejoicing with heartfelt joy to pay their religious homage." (This sounds similar to the three wise men, or kings, who came to pay homage to the baby Jesus).
Also, Buddha's mother, Mayadevi, was "beautiful as the water-lily and pure in mind as the lotus. As the Queen of Heaven, she lived on earth, untainted by desire, and immaculate." (Sounds like a description of Mary, from the Catholic and Orthodox point of view).
Tellurian, do you meditate?
peaceful1
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 24, 2009 3:55 PM
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p1
>> Since Buddha was born 500 years or so before Jesus, this makes one wonder if some borrowing took place.<<
In the 3rd century BCE the Indian Emperor Ashoka sent many prominent Buddhist monks (bhikshus) Sthaviras like Maharaskshit sthavira to Syria, Persia / Iran, Egypt, Greece, Italy and Turkey to spread Buddhist teachings. By the first century CE there had not only been Buddhist teachings in the area of Judea for a couple hundred years, but there also was a Buddhist community existing just outside of Alexandria, Egypt where much told in the gospel stories was created.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_the_Great#Global_Spread_of_Buddhism
For some of the "miracles" that were being told about the Buddha see the following site, and notice the similarities to some of the biblical Jesus stories in the gospels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Gautama_Buddha
For more detail on a "walking on water" story see:
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/walking-water.html
>> Tellurian, do you meditate?<<
Informally, yes. Formally, no, because I am already enlightened. 
Tellurian
--
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the ruler as useful" Seneca the Younger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtISyZYW5fY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkGpO1lQrLY&feature=related
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 25, 2009 7:42 AM
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Today's readings are about Buddha's youth, as a prince, living in luxury. It's a well-known story.
He married Yasodhara. They had a son named Rahula, which means "fetter" or "tie," which personally sounds like a cruel name. How about "millstone" or "chains"? I wouldn't name my son that.
Anyway, the prince lived a life of ease. His father (remembering the seer's prophecy, that his son might renounce the world) sheltered him from seeing the suffering of the world. But one day the prince went through the city with his Channa, his charioteer.
For the first time in his life, the prince saw "an old man with bent frame, wrinkled face and sorrowful brow," and the prince asked the charioteer: "Who is this? His head is white, his eyes are bleared, and his body is withered. He can barely support himself on his staff."
Later they saw a sick man "on the way-side, gasping for breath, his body disfigured, convulsed and groaning with pain."
Still later they passed a funeral procession.
Thus the prince became aware of three things which afflict people: old age, sickness and death.
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Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 26, 2009 9:15 AM
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Today's readings continued the mythology/sacred stories about Buddha's life. He left his life of comfort and wealth to seek enlightenment. He wept as he left his family.
Mara, the tempter, promised to make him "sovereign over the four continents and the two thousand adjacent islands" if he would give up his quest.
King Bimbisara (a neighboring ruler) also urged him to give up his quest. He argued that a rich man can be religious; there was no need to give up his wealth and power. But the prince would not turn back.
===
Well, Tellurian,
Last night I tried meditating for about 20 minutes. It was the first time in quite a while that I made an effort. Even though I didn't feel like it accomplished much, funny thing is, I had a dream last night, and I remembered it this morning.
It has been MANY MONTHS, maybe a year or more, since I've been able to remember one of my dreams. But this morning I remembered one.
So I wonder if even a short time meditating somehow cleared my mind a bit, or re-organized things.
peaceful1
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(15 of 31)
Re: Buddhism and the concept of the Divine
Sep 27, 2009 8:12 AM
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So, continuing the story --
The prince began his quest.
First, he found the greatest spiritual teachers among the Brahmans (the priestly class) and studied everything they taught. After a year of study, he was not satisfied with their teachings. He argued that their view of atman was wrong. He reasoned,
"How much confusion of thought comes from our interest in self, and from our vanity when thinking 'I am so great,' or 'I have done this wonderful deed?' The thought of your ego stands between your rational nature and truth; banish it, and then you will see things as they are."
When he went to their temples, he saw their animal sacrifices. He was repulsed by them.
"Far better to revere the truth than try to appease the gods by shedding blood. . . . Purify your hearts and cease to kill; that is true religion. . . . To abandon greed, to become free from evil desires, and to give up hatred, that is the right sacrifice."
Leaving the Brahmans, the prince went into a wooded area near the town of Uruvela. There in the grove of trees, he found a group of five men who were practicing extreme fasting and discipline, as a means of salvation.
The prince joined them and outdid them all in the severity of his fasts and mortification.
His body became "like a withered branch." He stayed with them for six years.
One day when he was very hungry, Mara the tempter came to him and urged him to eat. The prince replied, "What is life in this world? Death in battle is better to me than that I should live defeated." Mara left him and said, "For seven years I have followed the Blessed One step by step, but I have found no fault in him."
Finally, the prince was approaching starvation. He could no longer think clearly. He staggered and fell to the ground.
A passing woman took pity on him and gave him some rice milk. After eating, he felt stronger, and his clarity of mind returned.
Then he realized that extreme fasting was making him too weak to think clearly. He decided to leave the grove. The five men lost respect for him, and said, "Siddhartha leaves us to seek a more pleasant life."
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