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Posts:
5
Registered:
6/30/04
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(1 of 13)
Jun 30, 2004 8:40 PM
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can anyone tell, with NO offense to anyone, but why is there a Star of David on the Marine Corp Saber, reply back please
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Posts:
444
Registered:
7/14/03
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(2 of 13)
Jul 1, 2004 9:13 AM
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First, the star is not a Star of David because it is geometrically different. The Star of David does not consist of two triangles combined together, but rather two, separate, interlocking triangles (which, in recent history, and often when displayed in one-color designs, usually does appear to be two triangles combined together). Can't absolutely confirm the history of the star; however, I do know that the blade specifications for both the U.S. and British military swords require the six-pointed star with the word "Proved" etched on the blade. As best I can tell, the specification for the six-pointed star is historical in nature and was likely used to signify that the blade was manufactured using the Damascus steel method. Today, there is no requirement for Damascus steel blades; however, the six-pointed "Proved" star is required in the etch to signify that the blade meets the current military specifications. Even this use has lost its meaning, however, since replica swords intended only for wall-mounting incorrectly bear the symbol. Damascus steel was perfected by the Persians and was reportedly encountered by Alexander the Great three centuries before Christ. The Persians used the six-pointed star during these non-modern times. The Persian blade-making process of folding the steel many times - even hundreds of times - to layer the steel resulted in extremely tough blades with both strength and resilience. The term "Damascus steel" came from western traders first encountering the steel in Damascus. Today, U.S. military blades are purely ornamental and ceremonial in nature. The modern-day swords and sabers are certainly not made with Damascus steel blades and are not made to withstand blade-to-blade contact. Damascus steel blades today would cost tens of thousands of dollars to forge, and we know of no one who offers Damascus steel blades. Hope this answered your question.
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Posts:
27,254
From:
Flagstaff
Registered:
7/12/01
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(3 of 13)
Jul 1, 2004 2:53 PM
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"however, the six-pointed "Proved" star is required in the etch to signify that the blade meets the current military specifications."
That could be very true. I have a Marine sword that I just took down to look at and it does say Proved inside the star.
Beam me up Scotty. No intelligent life down here.
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Posts:
5
Registered:
6/30/04
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(4 of 13)
Re: I need a Marine's answer
Jul 1, 2004 7:17 PM
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none of you have answerd my question about the jewish star, none of you, marine1 came close, but he missed the nail with his hammer, okay so its a proof symbol, which i still doubt, but say it is, why choose a star of david?? why not an american eagle, or a 5 point star, okay i know why not a 5 point star, but something american, why choose a 6 point star, and IT IS A STAR OF DAVID, not that two triangle crap, my gramps is jewish, the star of david is 2 triangles put together, so some one tell me how it got there
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Posts:
27,254
From:
Flagstaff
Registered:
7/12/01
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(5 of 13)
Jul 1, 2004 10:28 PM
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one needs to know how far back the star goes on these military swords, and how far back they started using the star of David. If putting that star on military blades is historical, it could pre date the using of the star of David. My wife is Jewish, but she has no idea.
Beam me up Scotty. No intelligent life down here.
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Posts:
27,254
From:
Flagstaff
Registered:
7/12/01
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(6 of 13)
Jul 1, 2004 10:37 PM
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It seems like the star was used a lot by more than the Jews.
The Magen David (shield of David, or as it is more commonly known, the Star of David) is the symbol most commonly associated with Judaism today, but it is actually a relatively new Jewish symbol. It is supposed to represent the shape of King David's shield (or perhaps the emblem on it), but there is really no support for that claim in any early rabbinic literature. In fact, the symbol is so rare in early Jewish literature and artwork that art dealers suspect forgery if they find the symbol in early works.
Scholars such as Franz Rosenzweig have attributed deep theological significance to the symbol. For example, some note that the top triangle strives upward, toward G-d, while the lower triangle strives downward, toward the real world. Some note that the intertwining makes the triangles inseparable, like the Jewish people. Some say that the three sides represent the three types of Jews: Kohanim, Levites and Israel. While these theories are theologically interesting, they have little basis in historical fact.
The symbol of intertwined equilateral triangles is a common one in the Middle East and North Africa, and is thought to bring good luck. It appears occasionally in early Jewish artwork, but never as an exclusively Jewish symbol. The nearest thing to an "official" Jewish symbol at the time was the menorah.
In the middle ages, Jews often were required to wear badges to identify themselves as Jews, much as they were in Nazi Germany, but these Jewish badges were not always the familiar Magen David. For example, a fifteenth century painting by Nuno Goncalves features a rabbi wearing a six-pointed badge that looks more or less like an asterisk.
In the 17th century, it became a popular practice to put Magen Davids on the outside of synagogues, to identify them as Jewish houses of worship in much the same way that a cross identified a Christian house of worship; however, I have never seen any explanation of why this symbol was chosen, rather than some other symbol.
The Magen David gained popularity as a symbol of Judaism when it was adopted as the emblem of the Zionist movement in 1897, but the symbol continued to be controversial for many years afterward. When the modern state of Israel was founded, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag.
Today, the Magen David is a universally recognized symbol of Jewry. It appears on the flag of the state of Israel, and the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross is known as the Magen David Adom.
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Source: Judaism 101
Beam me up Scotty. No intelligent life down here.
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Posts:
1,267
Registered:
10/29/03
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(7 of 13)
Re: I need a Marine's answer
Jul 2, 2004 4:41 AM
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Hope this helps you out partner but it appears that the poster yiyimp already gave you pretty much most of the answer to your question.
What is the significance of the star on the upper blade of the officer's and noncommissoned officer's swords?
According to historian Ken Smith-Christmas, a curator at the Marine Corps Air-Ground Museum, Quantico,Va., the six-pointed star on the swords was originally a guild proof called the "Star of Damascus," an Eastern mark of distinction found on swords of high-quality workmanship. Over the years, the marking disappeared on blades. Museum correspondence with sword makers such as Wilkinson and N. S. Meyers indicates manufacturers, primarily British, have reintroduced that marking on swords.
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Posts:
2,957
Registered:
7/30/01
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(8 of 13)
Jul 3, 2004 9:53 AM
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The Marine Mameluke blade is a direct descendent of the gift given to Lt. Presley O'Bannon by the State of Virginia. it had the same Mameluke curved hilt born by the Basha of Tripoli Hamet Karamanli.
The Marine Mameluke blade was made official based upon O'Bannons own blade, hence I found.
"The Star of David came about because during the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln commissioned a Jewish man named Zendt to design the USMC Sword. Because Zendt was Jewish, he included a Star of David (Magen David) on the Sword. Today, the Star of David still appears on the Marine Corps NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) Sword, and the Officers Sword just below the hilt".
The above reference comes from JewishMarines.com
Also found this:
If the sword is made by the Wilkinson Sword Company the Star of David is on the hilt because the company was founded by a Jew, and the swords made by the direct descendants all have the Star of David on the hilt.
" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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Posts:
2,957
Registered:
7/30/01
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(9 of 13)
Lincoln and the NCO sword.
Jul 3, 2004 10:02 AM
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Marine Corps Swords
The swords carried by Marine Officers and Noncommissioned Officers go far back into the traditions of the Corps and are among the oldest weapons in continual use in the United States Armed Forces.
The sword that Officers carry goes back to the Inform Regulations of 1826. Records of the day, however, indicate that swords of this pattern were worn by Marine Officers before the war of 1812.
"The Mameluke Sword of the Officers gets its name from the cross-hilt and ivory grip, both of which were used for centuries by the Moslems of North Africa and Arabia. The Marine Corps tradition of carrying this type of sword dates from Lieutenant O'Bannon's assault on Derna, Tripoli, in 1805 when he is said to have won the sword of the Governor of the town"
.
"The Noncommissioned Officers' sword is the U.S. Army model sword which was adopted by the Marine Corps in 1859 and briefly carried by Marine Officers as well. When Officers went back to the Mameluke pattern in 1875, the Army-type sword was retained as a distinctive model for the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and has been carried by Marine NCOs ever since".
" A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his pocket picked"
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Posts:
2
Registered:
9/19/09
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(10 of 13)
Sep 19, 2009 10:02 AM
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> The Marine Mameluke blade is a direct descendent of
> the gift given to Lt. Presley O'Bannon by the State
> of Virginia. it had the same Mameluke curved hilt
> born by the Basha of Tripoli Hamet Karamanli.
>
> The Marine Mameluke blade was made official based
> upon O'Bannons own blade, hence I found.
>
> "The Star of David came about because during the
> Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln commissioned a
> Jewish man named Zendt to design the USMC Sword.
> Because Zendt was Jewish, he included a Star of David
> (Magen David) on the Sword. Today, the Star of David
> still appears on the Marine Corps NCO
> (Non-Commissioned Officer) Sword, and the Officers
> Sword just below the hilt".
>
> The above reference comes from JewishMarines.com
>
> Also found this:
> If the sword is made by the Wilkinson Sword Company
> the Star of David is on the hilt because the company
> was founded by a Jew, and the swords made by the
> direct descendants all have the Star of David on the
> hilt.
>
>
> " A neoconservative is a liberal who has had his
> pocket picked"
You are wrong on every comment in this post. First, the Mameluke sword was not Given to Lt. O'Bannon by Virginia, it was given to him by the Bash, Hamet Karamanli himself at Tripoli. I don't know where you got this other story but you discredit the Marine officer's sword by telling it that way. It was given as thanks for what the Marines did there.
Second, the OP here was about the NCO sword. And your Civil War story is total fiction also. It has absolutely nothing to do with a Jewish smith or Hebrews whatsoever as it is not the Star of David. It is infact two triangles that were used by smiths to show the quality of the blade. Please stop telling these stories. If you did not know they were fictitious then very well, but now you know they are, so if you tell them in the future you only discredit our hstory. And how do I know the stories are fiction, because I am a Marine and actually care about the history of my Corps, so I have studied it. The only religious symbols allowed on official Mainre Corps gear is the Chaplain's insignia, therefore there would not be a Star of David allowed on the sword for that reason.
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Posts:
19,156
Registered:
1/13/03
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(11 of 13)
Sep 20, 2009 10:18 AM
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I have a mint USMC sword blade which was imported by Hilborn-Hamburger, prolific military suppliers out of N.J. during the 30's and bears the firm's name. The blade has the star and was made in Solingen Germany. Inside the star are the stamped letters "p r o v e d" which indicates that it is a type of proof mark. So you have a Jewish firm importing swords bearing a star similar to the Star of David from (nazi) Germany. Quite a dichotomy. Since Israel did not exist until 1948 it isn't likely that anyone paid attention to the star. Militaria buffs say that the star was in fact an old trade mark that indicated quality (damascus) steel.
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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
5/26/03
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(12 of 13)
Re: I need a Marine's answer
Oct 8, 2009 10:17 AM
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Shooterpick appears to be looking for a particular answer. If so, he will regard any alternative explanations as not really addressing his question. For example, it can't not be a Star of David.
--
I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
325
From:
Northern California
Registered:
3/30/00
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(13 of 13)
Re: I need a Marine's answer
Nov 15, 2009 8:09 PM
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It isn't just marine swords, it's all U.S. military dress swords-army, navy, marines, coasties, etc. The Marlow White Company sells all these swords as well as dress uniforms, and their website has a FAQ section on swords that answers the star of David question. You can find it at http://www.militarysabers.com/military-sword-information/faq-six-point-star.html
--
"We few, we happy few..."
William Shakespeare, Henry V
Happy? Was he nuts?
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