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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
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(1 of 14)
Sep 4, 2009 9:19 AM
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He hasn't been saying much about it recently in his columns, but now he has spoken up, sounding skeptical about future stability in Iraq and the attitude he refs to as "triumphalism", and saying that, "If, in spite of contrary evidence, the U.S. surge permanently dampened sectarian violence, all U.S. forces can come home sooner than the end of 2011. If, however, the surge did not so succeed, U.S. forces must come home sooner." While I currently disagree with Will's recommendation on Afghanistan, I think he has it about right now on Iraq.
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I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
9,851
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(2 of 14)
Sep 4, 2009 9:30 AM
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And I disagree with both his assessments. Both appear to be uninformed.
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“There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by readin’. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”
–Will Rogers
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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
5/26/03
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(3 of 14)
Sep 4, 2009 10:13 AM
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I know you disagree, as I do, with his recommendation on Afghanistan, but can you be more specific about Iraq? I understand that you disagree with his assessment and that your own assessment is rosier, but can you be more specific about his opinion about what we should do next in Iraq?
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I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
9,851
From:
USA
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(4 of 14)
Sep 4, 2009 10:21 AM
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[nobr] Do next?
Here
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“There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by readin’. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”
–Will Rogers [/nobr]
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Posts:
19,154
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1/13/03
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(5 of 14)
Sep 5, 2009 9:10 PM
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Funny how the left never quotes a "conservative" columnist until they say something that can be used for left wing propaganda.. The Will column is a mild opinion. Why would the left pounce on it? To try to deflect Obama's incoherent attitude about the Military?
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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
5/26/03
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(6 of 14)
Sep 6, 2009 7:42 AM
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You're full of bull, whitehall. George Will is an excellent columnist because he is not a propagandist. His column typically is characterized by meaningful analysis and plausible argument. I read him all the time and often call what he has said to other people's attention, whether I agree or disagree. Unlike many self-identified conservatives in this forum, Will is a real conservative. If I quote him here, it's because I think his views and arguments are worth discussing. You are the last person in the world who should be accusing others of partisanship.
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I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
9,851
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USA
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(7 of 14)
Sep 6, 2009 9:24 AM
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Did you read Kagan's response?
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“There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by readin’. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”
–Will Rogers
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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
5/26/03
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(8 of 14)
Sep 6, 2009 10:45 AM
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I did read Kagan's response. I wasn't issuing a challenge. Obviously, what's factually relevant here is the situation in Iraq and how the presence of American troops relates to that. Kagan responds effectively in relation to that. He doesn't say what he thinks we should do next, though the implication is that we should "stay the course."
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I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
9,851
From:
USA
Registered:
3/14/06
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(9 of 14)
Sep 6, 2009 11:24 AM
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I didn't think of it as a challenge. Do next? What's wrong with what we are currently doing?
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“There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by readin’. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”
–Will Rogers
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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
5/26/03
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(10 of 14)
Sep 6, 2009 3:25 PM
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Some of us like to think that it will someday come to an end.
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I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
9,851
From:
USA
Registered:
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(11 of 14)
Sep 6, 2009 5:09 PM
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Yes, someday it shall, as it should. So far, you've lost me.
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“There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by readin’. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”
–Will Rogers
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Posts:
2,034
Registered:
5/7/04
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(12 of 14)
Sep 9, 2009 7:30 AM
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Certainly it all comes down to the level of violence - in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Those perpetuating the violence have little to offer in the way of a constructive vision for the future of their countries, and the people know it.
In both cases, US- backed governments must survive in order for the wars to be considered won. It could be decades before we can come to a final conclusion about the wars. Take the Philipine insurection for example. It took decades before the success of this unpopular anti-insurgency war could be properly evaluated.
Perhaps it's semantic, but I disagree with Will's use of the term "triumphalism". Where have you seen a ticker tape parade celebrating the success of the surge, as we had at the end of the first war with Iraq in '91? Where has there been any sort of celebration or expression of triumph at all? There is a sense that the war in Iraq is now over - which could prove false - but no sense of a victory won.
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Posts:
4,907
From:
Boise, Idaho
Registered:
5/26/03
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(13 of 14)
Sep 9, 2009 12:51 PM
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Haven't you been listening to spiritualmachine1? However, I agree with you that "triumphalism" is for the most part an inapt term.
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I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. -- Robert Frost
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Posts:
2,034
Registered:
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(14 of 14)
Sep 10, 2009 7:41 AM
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For my part it's more a sense of relief that the violence has died down there.
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