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May 2, 2008 8:50 AM
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Custers tactics mystified me for decades. I have now my answers and offer them for destruction.
It is all there in the recorded Sioux testimony.
Boston Custers arrival with news that Benteen followed was the catalyst.
GA Custer intended and attempted multiple crossings of the river from the east bank.
Possibly the entire left wing deployed at MTC for a crossing and were re buffed.
l suspect that only one company deployed while Custer took the other North.
He expected to box the gathering Sioux between CIL, E and Benteen arriving from the South.
Everything is an attempt to contain the Sioux assault for Benteen to 'cork the bottle'.
Reno was supported.
Custer moved with F company North to cross the River upstream and approach the non combatants.
He did not want the warriors and non combatants reuniting.
Company E retired north and tried one more crossing.
Company F attempted a crossing North of Company E, something stalled this move.
Casualties were accumulated on LSH.
Reno should have been tasked simply to run off the pony herds west of the village.
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May 2, 2008 2:00 PM
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Recently i have pondered Sioux and Cheyenne accounts of their fights at LBH. Once, twice even thrice i have gone over them. Whamo - it hit me.
Inuendo.
Everything is relative to the village and river. However, in the case of the Sioux and Cheyenne it is actually villages and whichever was theirs.
With that in mind - i went back to American Horse's Story of the Battle........... http://www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/american_horse_big_horn.html#g7 and carried on to others.
The factor in play is 'timing'.
MTC was cleared of troops as the Cheyanne American Horse rode past to defend his own village further along the river.
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Edited by herosrest at 05/02/2008 2:07 PM
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May 3, 2008 5:50 AM
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Interesting ideas. Have to agree that the expectation of Benteen arriving from the south -- as he so very nearly did, after all -- makes a lot more sense than losing time and initiative by waiting for him to travel the extra distance to join with Custer's command.
This might be worth looking at with the American Horse story in mind:
http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/freemanmap.jpg
It's the map of the battlefield drawn by Capt. Henry Freeman of the 7th Infantry, with Gibbon's command. It appears in his Journal -- seems he drew it on June 29th 1876 -- and is reproduced here from Mike Donohue's new book, Drawing Battle Lines. The dotted lines show what Freeman observed as the route taken by Custer's troops; the two II marks are the fords.
What we seem to have here is the usual split of the wings, but in this case, per Freeman's perception, after MTF the left wing went straight downriver to Deep Ravine Ford -- presumably to make a second crossing attempt -- and were driven back towards LSH.
However, if we overlay this map with American Horse's version of events, it could almost be read this way: whole command to MTF ... whole command to Deep Ravine Ford ... and those that AH describes as the ones who (nearly) got away are the right wing, Freeman's upper dotted line! This may sound far-fetched, and could be tough to reconcile with the mass of Indian accounts, but people far more sensible than I (such as the late Charles Kuhlman, for one) have put forward similar scenarios -- so maybe it can't be discounted entirely?
One thing I'm hoping the Battle Lines book may resolve is directionality of travel. All the early maps I've seen so far follow this same dotted-line principle for indicating Custer's route, but without specifying whether the mapper could tell from the hoof-prints which way the troops were travelling. It could be that it was obvious, or it could be that the ground was too dry to take clear impressions. Let's hope that there's at least one contemporary map that makes this plain, so that we can rule out -- or in -- the possibility of a reverse flow of battle once and for all ...
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May 3, 2008 8:07 AM
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Wow........... i have been picking apart 'Flying Hawks' adventure with Crazy Horse and run into some interesting 'hits'. Searching the web (Google) with complete sentences of the text. ie "Crazy Horse gave his horse to me to hold along with my 'horse." throws up cross reference.
Again, wow. I am taking in Capt. Henry Freeman's map.
An infantryman  and 'staff'. Another few hours of my life will be lost getting my head around it. It looks worth it's weight in gold. Thankyou.
l had expected to draw criticism of American Horse and am surprised this is not the case so far. Time line problems with 7th Cavalry deployments are nothing compared to those of their opponents who most certainly did not react as a herd.
In the back of my mind is 'Four by four along Nye-Cartwright', what went on up there. They might as well have been throwing stones if fire was directed at the villages or crossing below.
It's an experience returning to a subject that has drawn my passing interest over decades. I ran into the picture here http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10031275+X-31275 which stopped me in my tracks for a moment.
Regards.
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[color=red]DARE TO LOSE[/COLOR]
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Edited by herosrest at 05/03/2008 8:18 AM
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May 3, 2008 4:45 PM
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The scale, centre to left of the sketch seems accurate.
Right of the right crossing the river detail seems compressed.
It indicates the villages extended in excess of a mile north of LSH. Crucial eye-witness testimony. Well crucial.
Some of the addenda sequence is absent (3) and 7 is confusingly type-faced.
I guess Capt. Freeman escorted or covered Maguire and Beckers topographic survey and mapping on the 27th.
http://www.footnote.com/page/1236/The-Battle-of-Little-Bighorn/
I have serious inclination to trust military engineers competance. They did not indicate the Custers battalions route for fun. Unfortunately - for whatever reason, the eastern approches above MTC were skimmed over.
In the back of my mind is 'Four by four along Nye-Cartwright', what went on up there.
In the scenario you hint at Company C's charge was a breakout? - while they had mounts. Those tracks ran South.
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DARE TO LOSE
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Edited by herosrest at 05/03/2008 5:02 PM
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Edited by herosrest at 05/03/2008 5:07 PM
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May 4, 2008 12:35 AM
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Gentlemen you are on the right track but you seem to be on the wrong path in getting there. Before you attempt to conduct analysis on Indian accounts of the fight, I would suggest that you learn something about these people. Some 8 years ago when I started reviewing Indian accounts, I took the time to digest both Grinnell volumes on the Cheyenne, both of Black Elks books, Walkers volume on Lakota society, Lowies effort on the Crows, Stands in Timbers history on the Northern Cheyenne and both of Hydes versions on the Lakota. At this point I figured that I was prepared to tackle the Indian accounts. There are many pitfalls in digesting Indian accounts. Time compression, inproper sequencing of events, combining two different events into one single event, the method of exchange (was the interview conducted verbally or in sign), the reliablity of the translator and the interviewer himself (was it a historian or an enterprising journalist) all have to be factored into the account. American Horses story is a prime example of time compression. AH claims to have gone to fight Reno and then claims to have been one of the first to meet Custer. The only way AH can accomplish this feat would require that he have access to the Transporter Room on the Starship Enterprise. What AH is actually saying here is that he was one of the first warriors in the valley fight to arrive on the Custer field. By then the events at MTC had already played out. As far as the C Company scenario, I suggest that you examine Camps interviews on this subject. You will find that this was not an attempted breakout but rather an attempt to drive back infiltrating warriors in Calhoun Coulee. Wooden Leg provides some of the best testimony on this matter. As far as the movements of the left wing, these are best found in the accounts of Wolf Tooth, Beaver Heart and Hanging Wolf.
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Edited by jimbo117 at 05/04/2008 2:19 AM
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Edited by jimbo117 at 05/04/2008 2:20 AM
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Edited by jimbo117 at 05/04/2008 2:33 AM
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May 4, 2008 8:02 AM
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Jimbo -- Agree, much more to be looked into.
Hero -- Sorry, I was being a bit lazy here, posting only the image. What doesn't appear on that online version of Freeman's map is his notes, which go as follows:
"C at upper end is the point where Reno crossed the creek.
The dotted lines along the bluff to the ford, Custer's trail.
At 6 the first bodies were found.
At one (1) & 4 there were indications that they had dismounted and made a stand, and again at 2.
From the upper ford II to 5 is about 3/4 of a mile; from the same point to the upper C is 3 1/2 miles; from lower R to upper R, by the trail, 2 mi.
The Indians, Crows [inserted], say that there were more Sioux killed from Custer's point than in all the rest of the fighting below the ford.
7 is a ravine which toward the upper end is very steep and forms a pocket in which 28 bodies were found."
So that helps give a bit of an indication of the scale, as well as of his other observations.
(Interestingly, Freeman also notes in his Journal that: "On the evening of the 25, the Indians moved the upper part of the village down about 2 miles and settled down again, evidently intending to stay until they had used this up which they were doing at the rate of 50 per diem." (Not sure 50 what -- acres? Or what?) But here's at least one officer who was aware that the village had moved, which possibly casts doubt on assumptions of a naive miscounting of lodge circles when calculating the village's size.)
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May 4, 2008 10:39 AM
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Hi, jimbo117. l appreciate your guidance.
I hold no definitive view of the Custer battalions deployments along the river and am testing the 'critical' area of decision making at MTC. That said, the topographical survey and post mortem of the battlefield by US Army Engineers and command Staff is incontrovertible almost anywhere on earth. lt is unfortunate that Nye-Cartwright was not recognised as significant to events at that time. Such deployment 'dangerous and inspired' gave a re-action force. Parallel routing of columns, protects the left wings south flank and rear in deploying to advance across the water. Custer understood encirclement and watched it happen to Reno.
I have drifted back into LBH with a passing interest and hope not to ruffle feathers. I will drift away from the topic in time. Around new year i ran into news on the progress of the monument to Crazy Horse and a little later re-discovered Private Thompsons account. I found it very difficult to swallow but have about faced on that. His adventures read as a tale - something knocked up by R.E. Howard for Conan. The harder i test it the more convincing it is. The 'buffalo trail' is an enigma - i know it is significant but cannot get a handle on it. l firmly believe he witnessed a major engagement from the river bank opposite the Blackfeet encampment, be it at Deep Ravine or further North.
His encounter with Half Yellow Face rang alarms - you know what........... he did run into Half Yellow Face and other crow scouts on the East of the river coming out of MTC. That is a revelation. Half Yellow Face was everywhere.
A puzzling aspect of the battle for me is the lack of an indian presence east of the river returning from the bluffs after driving back Reno. It should beggar belief that this did not occur.
The right wing manouvered and engaged along ridge tops. How many though and why?
Where ever it was that three units of Custers command were able to deploy abreast and engage before moving off is the key to Custers battle. I know not where that happened.
l have one abiding ghost of memory from childhood or teens of a group of braves being run off as the companies manouvered - but try as i might i cannot recover that information. I trust this memory - it tought me the word pincer.
Your thoughts and insight greatly appreciated.
I'm aware of the issues of veracity, it applies across the spectrum of evidence.
ln that respect - help me out. For an idea of how my head is working things - I tended to give curly benefit of all doubt until some 12 hours ago.
Here are a couple of pictures :
Thašųka Witko - Crazy Horse - Oglala warrior.
http://www.custermuseum.org/crazyhorse.htm Click to enlarge the crazy horse image.
Ashishishe - Crow - Crow Warrior.
http://www.firstpeople.us/photographs2/Curley-Crow-Scout.html
There is resemblance - quite some between Curly and CrazyHorse in the pictures.
I realised the that early photography actually portrayed a mirror image on print.
Applying transformation to either picture reveals them to actually show the same individual. Check the Jaw lines.
Then some two thirds down the web page here http://lbha.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=Indians&action=print&thread=1445
is a further twist to the crazy horse photo twist. I'm raving now - shoot me.
There are no conclusions to jump to - it's a mind bender.
l've thrown a lot at you here, it's a liberty. l apologise.
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DARE TO LOSE
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Edited by herosrest at 05/04/2008 10:51 AM
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May 4, 2008 7:38 PM
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Well, i mapped Freemans record to terrain at LBH.
It's online here. Worth a nosey. http://files.myopera.com/herosrest/albums/484726/LuceRidgeFight-%20HASH%201.jpg
2 Dismounted stand
3 ??
4 Dismounted stand
5 ??
6 First bodies found
7 28 bodies found
There's some artistic licence with the upper route onto Luce. Custers dawdling (inuendo on the part of some witnesses) was necessary to get the wing up above him. He put the time to use and called Benteen forward with ammo - intending him to leapfrog Reno.
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DARE TO LOSE
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Edited by herosrest at 05/04/2008 7:40 PM
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Edited by herosrest at 05/04/2008 7:53 PM
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May 5, 2008 9:20 AM
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Private Thompson was disoriented and his report of an engagement was in fact the Reno Assault.
Benteen was tasked (oriented) West.
Until conference with Reno, he 'focused' the Reno engagement which he understood as proceeding well.
"We have struck a big village. Hurry up. Bring up the packs.". These orders are ambiguous to Benteen on the battlefield he discovers.
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DARE TO LOSE
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May 5, 2008 1:24 PM
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Hey Hero,
Number 2 is Calhoun Ridge.
Number 5 is the Henryville Sector.
I do not see a number 3 or 4 on your map though.
Number 6 is Medicine Tail Coulee before the separation of the wings was made.
Number 7 is Butler Ridge.
The letter C is Calhoun Hill.
The letter Z is Calhoun Coulee.
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Edited by General76 at 05/05/2008 1:26 PM
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May 5, 2008 2:25 PM
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I thought that as well, Number 1 is North of I90?
The map detail can be interpreted for two areas.
Freemans diagram can apply to the MTC area as easily as LSH. http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/freemanmap.jpg
It's a matter of scale.
If you trust your interpretation that places the left most 'C' at LSH - a dismounted engagement occured north of I90. All yours.......
If you take the Left most 'C' from the diagram as Calhoun hill it matches terrain equally.
I read somewhere - "God was laughing that day" - I think he was out of it.
The Officer dropped mid stream on a sorrel - that was Reno's assault.
I got through the bs and fixations. The encampment did 'not' know it was Custer until after the battle. They sat all night 'Whooping down' and the daring do's all came together.
Win a bar free for all with a few mates and then drink it over that same evening. Next mornings story is way off the scale. It's why evidence on the spot at the time is so vital.
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DARE TO LOSE
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Edited by herosrest at 05/05/2008 2:34 PM
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Edited by herosrest at 05/05/2008 2:54 PM
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May 5, 2008 2:52 PM
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Hey Hero,
There is one problem with the officer dropped in the river while on a sorrel scenario. Only companies C and K rode on sorrels. We know Company C was never attached to the left wing and therefore did not come down to the river. And Company K was with Benteen so there was no way an officer from that company could be dropped into the river.
The officers for the three companies were as follows...
Company C
Captain Thomas W. Custer: Acting as Aide-de-Camp and attached to the Headquarters staff, was killed on Last Stand Hill.
Second Lieutenant: Henry Moore Harrington was the lone officer with the Company and the acting commander. He was never identified, but most likely died with his men in the Calhoun or Keogh Sectors.
Company K
First Lieutenant Edward S. Godfrey: was the lone officer with the company and survived the battle.
Second Lieutenant Luther R. Hare: was commanding the Indian scouts with Lt. Varnum. He was involved in the Valley Fight and the retreat to the bluffs, but survived the battle, so it could not have been him that died.
The only man that can't be ruled out is Harrington, but I find this highly unlikely, especially when you consider the events that followed the Medicine Tail Coulee action.
The only confirmed info I have of an officer being killed at the river is Second Lieutenant Benjamin H. Hodgson of Company B at the retreat ford. He was attached to Headquarters as Reno's aide. Hodgson rode on a Light Colored Bay and not a sorrel though.
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Edited by General76 at 05/05/2008 3:00 PM
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May 5, 2008 3:24 PM
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E and F went low. I and L high. Custer held with C on the bluffs.
Half Yellow Face ducked over from Reno somehow and pulled his guys out off there.
E and F were pushed north.
Custer went high with Gall on his tail.
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DARE TO LOSE
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May 5, 2008 3:29 PM
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Sorry Hero. I don't agree with you. Custer never was with C during the fight. Headquarters was next to Company F and the left wing all day. C was in the right wing with L and I. I can find no information that shows C was by itself in an independent battalion. After all, it goes against the rank and seniority list and against the tactics manual.
Half Yellow Face, like White Swan, was involved in the Valley Fight and did not link up with the other four Crows that went with Custer until after they were all on the hill, with the exception of Curley of course.
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