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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 6:34 AM
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42h- Oh yes they are, but you wouldn't recognize them because of your new 19th century man- made way of interpreting the Bible.like as in cult -like. LOL
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 6:44 AM
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EWB,
Each has a view and that vision reflects the interior of each.
LUKE 17: 20-21
One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God begin?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country,' For the Kingdom of God is within you." [TLB]
It would seem that "God's true church" must be within the one, else one could never be within it.
best,
swampy
--
God, help me to love more today, than I did yesterday.
Is there anybody out there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaLmg40Bd0&feature=related
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:10 AM
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> "The kingdom of God is within." Or "The kingdom of
> God is within your midst" which is a more accurate
> translation of that scripture. Jesus was not
> teaching that the kingdom of God is within a person,
> that is quite contrary to Bible teaching about that
> kingdom:
>
> (Daniel 2:44) ?And in the days of those kings the
> God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never
> be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not
> be passed on to any other people. It will crush and
> put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will
> stand to times indefinite;
>
> That kingdom government is an invisbile one but is
> real, it has subjects, it has a king, and it has
> laws. That kingdom, the Bible says is about to come
> and put and end to all human governments and rule
> forever, hardly could this be something within
> someone. This distortion of the truth has mislead
> many from understanding what the kingdom is.
>
> As far as the true Church is concerned, Jesus said it
> would not be until the last days that it would become
> evident who it is (the word from Church can also be
> translated congregation, and is in no way related to
> a building. The true Christian Church, or
> congregation is the anointed while on earth, of whom
> 144,000 are a part, they come out of every tibe and
> tongue and nation of the earth. Very little of that
> number are remaining on earth, most have already
> received their heavenly reward, and are ruling as
> kings with Jesus in heaven:
>
> (Revelation 5:9-10) . . .?You are worthy to take
> the scroll and open its seals, because you were
> slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons
> for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and
> nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and
> priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings
> over the earth.?
>
> Now as far as who are true Christians the Bible gives
> several identifying factors:
>
> (1) On what its teachings are based.
> Are they from the Bible or largely taught by
> y man-made doctrines? Ask for example where does the
> Bible teach a Trinty, or that the soul is immortal?
> (See 2 Tim 3:16 and also Mark 7:7)
>
> (2) It makes God's name known throughout
> the world. Jesus said in prayer to his God:
> ?I have made your name manifest to the men you gave
> e me out of the world.? (John 17:6) He declared: ?It
> is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to
> him alone you must render sacred service.? (Matt.
> 4:10) Ask yourself does the religion teach that it
> is to Jehovah one must worship? Have you come to
> know Jehovah by his personal name and what that
> means, for his purposes, and his active qualities, so
> that it draws you closer to him?
>
> (3) True faith in Jesus Christ is
> manifest. This includes the appreation for the
> ransom sacrfice of Jesus' human life and his position
> as king of God's kingdom in heaven.
>
>
> (4) Is it largely ritualistic, a formality, or is
> it a way of life? God strongly disapproves of
> religion that is merely a formalism. (Isa. 1:15-17)
> True religion upholds the Bible?s standard of
> morality and clean speech instead of weakly going
> along with popular trends. (1 Cor. 5:9-13; Eph.
> 5:3-5) Its members reflect the fruits of God?s spirit
> in their lives. (Gal. 5:22, 23) So, those who adhere
> to true worship can be identified because they
> sincerely endeavor to apply Bible standards in their
> lives not only at their places of meeting but in
> their family life, at their secular work, in school,
> and in recreation.
>
> (5) Do its members truly love one another?
> Jesus said: ?By this all will know that you are my
> disciples, if you have love among yourselves.? (John
> 13:35) Such love reaches across racial, social, and
> national boundaries, drawing people together in
> genuine brotherhood. So strong is this love that it
> sets them apart as being truly different. When the
> nations go to war, who have enough love for their
> Christian brothers in other lands that they refuse to
> take up arms and kill them? That is what early
> Christians did.
>
> (6) Is it truly separate from the world? Jesus
> said that his true followers would be ?no part of the
> world.? (John 15:19) To worship God in a manner that
> he approves requires that we keep ourselves ?without
> spot from the world.? (Jas. 1:27) Can that be said of
> those whose clergy and other members are involved in
> politics, or whose lives are largely built around
> materialistic and fleshly desires??1 John 2:15-17.
>
> (7) Are its members active witnesses concerning
> God?s Kingdom? Jesus foretold: ?This good news of
> the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited
> earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the
> end will come.? (Matt. 24:14) What religion is really
> proclaiming God?s Kingdom as the hope of mankind
> instead of encouraging people to look to human
> rulership to solve their problems? Has your religion
> equipped you to share in this activity, and to do it
> from house to house as Jesus taught his apostles to
> do??Matt. 10:7, 11-13; Acts 5:42; 20:20.
>
> Compare what the Bible teaches with what the religion
> practices, if you use the Bible as your guide you
> will not find it hard to determine who really has the
> truth. And yes, the Bible does say that there is
> only one way:
>
> (Ephesians 4:4-6) . . .One body there is, and one
> spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to
> which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one
> baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], . .
As there are as many understandings/misunderstandings of the scriptures as there are Christian denominations who is going to be the arbitator as to who's understanding is correct?
You can't decide this based soley on the Bible unless you have a completely unbiased opinion on what it actually says.
For example the Catholic Faith is based on the Bible(contrary to what others might have you believe). Every dogma of the Catholic Church is based on it's understanding of the Scriptures.
Who decides whose understanding is correct? That is why there has to be an authority in the Church.
In light of no authority, my proposed method in my previous post is the only way to settle it.
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:11 AM
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Swamp- That verse doesn't overide Matt 16; 18-19
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(20 of 157)
Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:18 AM
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> 42h- Oh yes they are, but you wouldn't recognize them
> because of your new 19th century man- made way of
> interpreting the Bible.like as in cult -like. LOL
Barry,
I couldn't help but notice that in many of your most recent posts that you refer to all that question Catholic authority as all being influenced by "19th century" men.
I know what you are trying to say, but I must remind you there are only three of us here in good standing, one who is not, but cannot deny the truth, and one who has not yet made a dedication to serve Jehovah.
So all the others who oppose Catholic authority are seemingly lumped in together with the JW's by you.
By doing this you are acknowledging the effectiveness of our work, and I thank you.
I do not expect this post to last long, like the one I addressed to you last night, if my theories about post removal from this board are correct. And I think those theories are.
And finally, does LOL stand for Lament Out Loud?
--
".....he reasoned with them from the scriptures." Acts 17:2
"God's words discerns the intentions of the heart. Those who claim to represent it but reject it reveal their heart condition before God and all men."
Victrix Solidarus
"I am not concerned with scriptural reasoning."
St. Augie
"Jesus didn't become God Almighty until Constantine said so"
Retraction is hereby retracted.
biblestudent
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(21 of 157)
Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:22 AM
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> EWB,
>
> Each has a view and that vision reflects the interior
> of each.
>
> LUKE 17: 20-21
> One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the
> Kingdom of God begin?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom
> of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You
> won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this
> place or there in that part of the country,' For the
> Kingdom of God is within you." [TLB]
>
> It would seem that "God's true church" must be within
> the one, else one could never be within it.
Swampy,
That is the most common understanding, but the problem with that particular translation and interpretation is that the men he was speaking to were devoid of any belief in Jesus, and opposed to his kingdom.
So why would he say "the kingdom of God is within you?in such an address."
Another more accurate way to translate that verse in it's context is, "the kingdom of God is in your midst".
Therefore the understanding would simply be that Jesus and his foundation-stone disciples were in their presence.
This is not to say that the kingdom was not an integral hope in the hearts of his disciples, for that would be as ridiculous as saying that the Pharisees shared the same hope and that it was "within THEM".
The adverb translated "within" is Greek entos, "inside, within, within the limits of" or "among you, in your midst."
-A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:35 AM
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Biblestudent--What I am saying is that your cult is without doubt a man-made cult from a personal [ Mr.Russell, as in Jim Jones type=mere-men type ] interpertation which isn't the way the Holy Bible was intented to be interpreted, it's just fine to read the Bible daily but not to read it as if you was reading your daily newspaper for an example.
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:36 AM
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Mornin' Barry,
There is no contradiction and I understand how one might interpret the passage you allude to concerning the founding of a "true church." Let us look a bit further in the same chapter of Matthew, verse 23: Jesus turned on Peter and said, "Get away from me, you Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are thinking merely from a human point of view, and not from God's." [TLB]
This is the only time in the Gospels that Jesus calls another person "Satan." Yet, just a few verses before, He had built His church upon this same man, or did He? I think it is important that these verses appear in the same chapter, it is upon the FAITH of Peter that His church is built, not the man; it is upon the same lack of faith of Peter that he is called "Satan." Else, would we believe that Peter is Satan and that the church of Jesus is thus built?
Now, I am not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs, even if I could. It is important that each follow what is within and not pretend to believe. If one truly does this, then we are all blessed and it seems you are doing this, thus it is so. Likewise, others are bound to the "word within." For me to try and believe contrary to what is true to me is a form of pretense and the same God that gives me breath knows my heart.
best,
swampy
--
God, help me to love more today, than I did yesterday.
Is there anybody out there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaLmg40Bd0&feature=related
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(24 of 157)
Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:42 AM
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OK Barry, just that there are no misunderstandings.
Are you saying that only the RCC alone knows and teaches the only correct understanding of the Bible?
--
".....he reasoned with them from the scriptures." Acts 17:2
"God's words discerns the intentions of the heart. Those who claim to represent it but reject it reveal their heart condition before God and all men."
Victrix Solidarus
"I am not concerned with scriptural reasoning."
St. Augie
"Jesus didn't become God Almighty until Constantine said so"
Retraction is hereby retracted.
biblestudent
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Nov 17, 2008 7:47 AM
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If one believes in God, and that he created the heavens and the earth, then his church would be this planet, this blue ball in space we all are priviledged to live on. Yet instead of treating it as a sacred place, we are defecating all over it. The belief systems that understood this very well, are pretty much extinct except for a few remnants. You won't find much about the true faith in scripture because scripture committed matricide a long time ago, it banished forever the sacred feminine.
--
Things are real only after one has learned to agree on their realness.
(Don Juan Matus)
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:56 AM
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Hi EWB,
The discourse seems to revolve around where, where is. That, that comes from God, contains God and is within the Kingdom of God, just as the Kingdom is within it. If the midst be around one, then one is within the midst and the breath of the midst is within the one.
As I told Barry, I would not attempt to alter your beliefs, even should I have such power. It seems that you are true to what is within you and thus, we are all blessed whenever one is so.
best,
swampy
--
God, help me to love more today, than I did yesterday.
Is there anybody out there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaLmg40Bd0&feature=related
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 7:58 AM
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> This is the only time in the Gospels that Jesus calls
> another person "Satan." Yet, just a few verses
> before, He had built His church upon this same man,
> or did He? I think it is important that these verses
> appear in the same chapter, it is upon the FAITH of
> Peter that His church is built, not the man; it is
> upon the same lack of faith of Peter that he is
> called "Satan." Else, would we believe that Peter is
> Satan and that the church of Jesus is thus built?
Chapter and verse is not the way the Bible was written.
Jesus earlier changed Simon's name to Peter, then gave him the keyes as Peter. Then He called him satan not for any reason other than he was trying to tempt Him, which up to that point jesus had only been tempted by the real Satan. Jesus called him rock because he was to be the foundation stone(Pope) upon which many more stones(Popes) were to be added. Men as men have many faults but Jesus gave to a select few(and their successors) the Holy Ghost to insure that His Church would be protected from errors not so that they wouldn't sin but to protect His Church. No one but no one can tell me that the leaders of their churches are not sinners.
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 8:01 AM
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Swamp--- The following is from John Salza----First, this verse demonstrates that Jesus has given Peter a divine appointment, that is, to be the chief shepherd of the Church after Christ was no longer with them. Jesus only speaks about His death after appointing Peter the chief shepherd. When Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom, Jesus is establishing Peter as the authority over the Church, and this also facilitates apostolic succession to his chair. See Isaiah 22:15,19-22 which is the only other place where "keys" are used to descibe dynastic succession to the Davidic kingdom, which Jesus came to fulfill in His Holy Catholic Church.
Second, Jesus' rebuke of Peter actually underscores Peter's importance among the apostles. None of the other apostles understood what Jesus was saying at this time either. Note also that Peter is rebuked for his private opinion, not for his official teachings. Any pope can be rebuked for private opinions. Thus, Jesus? rebuke of Peter in no way undermines the papacy or Peter?s teaching authority.
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Re: What is Gods true church?
Nov 17, 2008 8:02 AM
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barry, what does all this apostolic line stuff mean? It means nothing. I doubt that Jesus would approve the countless Popes and Bishops who bought their offices, or used chicanery and even murder to get their 'sees' . Nor are they descendents of any Jesus bloodline. They are men, that's all, and some of them so evil that to assume that God annointed them to lead the Church is unthinkable ( unless God has a dark side we don't want to talk about).
And here is a real kick...Jesus did not found a church, nor would he have wanted to. Jesus was a Rabbi of the Jewish faith, and he would have gagged at the mention of trinity, and he would have railed at the amassing of power and wealth in his name, at the palaces and cathedrals built, at the sheer presence of Mammon in the Church. All the Church did was replace Rome as the oppressor of the masses and ruler of the Empire.
One other thing, if Peter is considered the founder of your faith, then why aren't you observing the jewish faith? Peter was a Jew, a Jewish disciple, who kept the laws as Jesus taught. Paul was the fellow who did not know Jesus, was not a disciple, not ordained by him in any way, yet he hijacked your faith. The Church follows the Pauline example, and pushed Peter aside except nominally. Your foundation has cracks, barry, lots of cracks.
--
Things are real only after one has learned to agree on their realness.
(Don Juan Matus)
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