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Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 13, 2009 5:25 PM
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Well, just to remind what it is about.
It's a continuation of a Polish-Russian discussion in the comments threads to the Sabaton's clips.
We're going to discuss the following questions:
1. Katyn's execution: who is responsible?
2. Russian Smuta: did Poles took Moscow by force or by agreement?
3. Did Poland has the right to take all the lands it took between 1918 and World War II?
4. Were Stalin's repressions just a struggle against internal enemies or were inspired only by Stalin's paranoia?
- added- 5: Can Soviet agression in 1939 be justified in any way?
This preliminary list can be extended during the discussion.
So, welcome! Friends and enemies, brothers and sisters, old and new...
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 17, 2009 10:22 AM
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Helllo everyone, I've already met with Narodovolets on YouTube but it will be best to express my opinions (which as I think are also opinion of most Polish people and many western historians) to everyone who isn't familiar with our latest discussion.
1. Soviets are responsible for Katyn, they did this to get rid of Polish intellligence without knowledge that in just one year Poland will became their allly in fight against Nazi Germany.
2. Moscow couldn't be taken without massive victory in the battle of Klushino in which almost whole Russian army was destroyed and many foreign regiments changed their colours and join Polish-Lithuanian forces.
3. I guess your point is about Eastern lands, Lvov, Vilnius but also about Zaolzie.
Lvov and Vilnius were Polish cities because of the majority of theirs inhabitants, which is in my opinion the most important thing when you mention "national identity".
4. Stalin was crazy. As an example you can use death of Soviet officers in 1937. The ones who stated that Soviet defeat in 1920 was Stalin's fault died (Tukhachevsky for example).
I'd also add number 5: Can Soviet agression in 1939 be justified in any way?
I don't think so. That was breaking of all international agreements between Poland and USSR, and stating that after German agression Poland didn't exist is not good enough for me.
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 17, 2009 9:04 PM
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Well, let's discuss the first question first. Katyn'. The bloody drama of Polish intelligence. Who is responsible? Let's see...
1.1. What was the reasons for Soviets to get rid of Polish officers? Germans had these reasons - I'll tel you about them when you answer this question.
1.2. What documents or other facts can prove Poles were killed by Soviets? (If you provide me with those documents, I'll easily show all they are falsified)
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 19, 2009 11:41 AM
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I gues that there is no point in showing any documents if you call them "fakes" before you even see them. This is very wrong and unprofessional attitude.
I agree Germans had their reasons to kill Polish officers, but so did Soviets. USSR army was in reorganisation and preparing to strike at Germans. Annexation of Poland would be so much easier without intelectual elite. Hitler knew it and so did Stalin. He knew that on their way to Berlin Russian army had to march through Poland. Do you think that if events would have gone this way and Soviets would won the war by themselves (what in my opinion was quite real, they needed more time to regain their strenght and modernize army) they'd just left conquered Poland? I think they'd try to change it into another Soviet Republic like they did with Latvia or Ukraine.
They didn't totally annihilated Poland because after Nazi attack they were shattered and they need American and Briitish help. They had to make some arrangements which they broke (free election, many political parties and famous voting about nationalisation of industry and Eastern lands).
By the way can you tell me what reasons Soviets had for shooting their own officers, building work camps and so on?
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 19, 2009 9:55 PM
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If you can't show any real document, so we conclude there are no documentary evidences of a Soviet responsibility of Katyn'. What about "calling documents fakes before even seeing them" - I'm aware of most of so called "documents". All of them are very unlikely to be real and true. For some of the "documents", shown by Katyn's accusers, falsification evidences were so clear, that they is not being shown anymore.
About hypothetical "annexation of Poland" by Soviets. It's very funny accusation. Soviet government was preparing to German aggression, and exisitng polish state was a good buffer between USSR and Germany. Next, lands, returned to USSR in September 1939, were inhabited by mostly Ukrainian and Belarus people, hated Poles. On this territory there wasn't necessary to suppress Polish resistance: all the Poles there could be killed by people themselves. Meanwhile, German part of Poland was a Polish mainland, and Soviets, for making some problems to Germany, should set all Polish officers free, rather than shoot them.
Moreover, you cannot affix to USSR any intentions to annex entire Poland, because after 1945 Victory Poland was restored as an independent state. So USSR didn't pretend to have Polish mainlands and hence your argument loses its sense
About the reasons to shoot Soviet officers. The roots of that come from 1936-37, when Soviet government revealed the plot of some generals, preparing a military coup. Was this threat real or not - I'm not aware, but that time it was very dangerous to let the traitors do their deals. Because the world situation was very tense. So the so called "repressions" were the attempt to destroy Soviet "fifth column". Of course, during this operation were killed lots of innocent people, but without this, USSR might lose this war. Nazi organization were created almost everywhere: US, South America, Czech, Norway (find in the net info about Quisling) , Slovakia, Belgium, UK,... But in the USSR after 1940 they were virtually absent. After the repressions, that the modern people tend to consider as "political murders"...
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 20, 2009 4:09 PM
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Well as you stated in your response "a lot of inncent people died" and even if they were pro-Nazi so what?Maybe they hated Soviet cruel government so much that they prefered Germans. And that is so called "political murder" I mean what's the difference who is going to kill you? They were obviously wrong, but I think that if Nazists weren't so crul during their occupation of Soviet land they would have won the war thanks to local support. People really hated Soviets, they really did. If people want change it should be done, and not stopped by repressions.
And after 1945 Victory Poland wasn't an independent country. We had Soviet army in our land, Cremlin decided about our politics and economy.
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 24, 2009 10:07 PM
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Actually, the terror 1937-38 was aimed against the Nazi supporters in Red Army and other official institutions. In the beginning, it was performed by special units, called 'troyka' (I hope, in Polish this word, denoting just a figure 'three', has the same meaning and pronunciation). Troyka consisted of three persons: president (head of the regional NKVD branch), and two members: regional prosecutor and head of the regional VKP(b) branch. The problem was - sometimes the members of these troykas were the Nazi supporters themselves. And, of course, they often found guilty innocent people. When it was revealed, Stalin executed former People Commissar of Domestic Affairs (Ezhov) and replaced him with Beriya. After that, many of the troykas members were executed or repressed as well.
Just to remind you, fifth column were repressed not in the USSR only. For instance, in England were repressed at least 20000 of Nazists (British Union of Fascists): they were expelled and the party itself was banned. Then, English government sent to the concentration camps or jails about 74000 of people, being the citizens of the hostile countries. USA "forcible relocated or interned" about of 110 thousands of ethnic Japanese, having at least 1/8 of Japan blood. About 65% of those people had American citizenship. So it was a common practice to get rid of potential traitors and collaborators.
(* NKVD=Narodnyi Komissariat Vnutrennih Del, in English something like a People Commissariat of Domestic Affairs;
VKP(b) - Vsesoyuznaya Kommunisticheskaya Partiya (bol'shevikov) = All-USSR Communist Party (of Bolsheviks))
About the cruelty of Soviet regime - it's a completely separate issue, requiring a separate discussion. What I just want to say - right before WW II the internal market of USSR was being filled with the various goods and products, due to conducted industrialization. What about repressed people - their number were significantly less, than repressed, expelled and killed since October Revolution, and some of these people (especially from Red Army) were repressing and killing innocent people themselves, during the Civil War.
"People really hated Soviets"? Who told you about it? Well, some people hated, by some people really cheered Soviet Army, when it came to their lands. A perfect example are Eastern territories of Poland in September-October 1939. If people really so hated Soviets, as you're trying to convince me, we would never win those war.
So, USSR didn't prepare to attack Germany - it would be a suicide, because Western country hated USSR and would help Germany to win. What did USSR really prepared - it's a powerful strike back.
What about Polish sovereignty - well, so let's call all the country, where USA military bases are located, or whose politic is influenced by USA, as "occupied by USA", er?
So, my final conclusion: there is no evident reasons for USSR in 1940-41 to kill the thousands of Polish officers. Though, some of them were convicted to execution or jail - along with Soviet citizens, belonging to fifth column, and by the similar criterion.
By the way, do you know: USSR sold to Poland lots of cotton right after the beginning of German aggression (September 3, 1939). But cotton is a strategic material, it used to produce gunpowder and explosives. Could Soviet leaders in the same time arm Polish army and prepare to attack Poland?
Also, Red Army was withdrawn from the Polish border to let Poland to use against Germans some of the armies from the east part of country. So it appears an additional proof that USSR didn't initially plan to attack Poland.
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 25, 2009 11:30 AM
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Well I'm shocked.
In the end of your post you stated that Soviet armies were withdrawn from Polish-Russo border to let Poland to use it's armies from the east part of the country.
First of all: only Polish troops in the eastern part of the country were so called Border Defence Corps (KOP) and remainings of few infantry divisions.
Also if Soviets fulled back their armies why did they have almost 5000 tanks and 33 inf. divisions few days later? The fact is that Voloshilov (Soviet Defnece Commander) ordered mobilisation 3rd September so I think that it's an addotional proof that Soviets invaded Poland.
You also said that people loved Soviet government, then why there were so many Nazists in USSR? Have a look on photos of starving children on Ukraine and then talk about market full of goods. Industrialisation, well that's a fact, but most of factories were heavy, military industry.
And after Soviet agression in 1939 people didn't cheer them in Poland. We did the same thing Finland did. We fought. The difference was that Finland fought only on one front.
You say that Poland was an independent country after 1945? Then why for almost 45 years only political party
was PZPR (which was accidentally Communist party). Oh and maybe you also think that Hungary was an independent country? Or Czechoslovakia? What about Soviet invasions on those countries when they tried to make some reforms?
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Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Mar 30, 2009 9:34 PM
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Soviet Union did all the actions it could do to let Poland repel the German aggression! First of all, it asked Poland about defensive alliance. Poland rejected. Then, USSR suggested Poland to extend its anti-USSR alliance with Romania and make it anti-German too. Poland rejected. Then, instead of Lithuania (more strategically important area) USSR claimed to belong to its area of interest by the line of old imperial fortresses at Narew-Vistula-San, to let Polish army defend here against the Germans. Poles were fleeing to Romania and Hungary, obeying the order of Marshal Rydz-Smigly from September 3, on third day of the war!
Yes, USSR started partial mobilization in the Western part of the country, but even Polish Ambassador Wacław Grzybowski admitted that mobilization as insufficient for the considerable military actions.
And, well, if USSR made an act of aggression against the sovereign Polish state, why:
1. Romania, due to defensive alliance with Poland against USSR, did not declare war to USSR?
2. England and France, due to the same reasons, did not declare war too?
3. Polish Commander-in-Chief Edward Rydz-Smigly did not issue an order to all the Polish armies to repel the Soviet aggression?
4. USSR was not expelled from League of Nations, as happened after Soviet-Finnish war?
That's all, folks! Nobody considered it as an aggression because an object of aggression - Polish state - did not exist by that time.
About 'lots of nazists in USSR'. A number of Soviet Nazi was not too big comparable to numbers of Nazi in another countries. But, at least, USSR itself wasn't a Nazi state. Poland - was. It was 'Only-for-Poles' state. As an argument, let's compare the percentage of Poles and Ukrainians in the Polish population (60% and 21%) an among the Polish officers (97% and 0.1%). So it's not a surprise that inhabitants of Eastern Polish territories hated Poles and tried to kill and banish them away.
About 'we fought against Soviets' - what about Armia Ludowa? What about blaming of Soviet Army for not helping the Warsaw rebellion in 1944? I'm afraid, you've forgot too many facts...
What about Czechoslovakia - it was invaded by Polish army as well as army of USSR, don't forget it! Because it was the collective decision of whole Warsaw Pact.
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(10 of 10)
Re: Polish-Russian Discussion
Apr 2, 2009 12:27 AM
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Well that is quite simple. Soviets didn't declared war but they have invaded Poland (just like Hitler, the difference was that in the beggining of war it was much simplier to react diplomatic way) and major mistake made by Polish government was not declaring war with Soviet Union. Rydz-Śmigły has ordered retrat to Romania and Hungary afer Soviet invasion.
Do you really think that by making few statements you can excuse whole invasion?
5000 TANKS, 33 INFANTRY DIVISIONS AND MORE AIRCRAFTS THAN GERMANS HAD.
In those days nobody (in UK and France) really knew what happened in Poland but now everyone describes those events as Soviet agression.
About those 'nazi numbers' well it was you who tried to excuse murdering innocent people by calling them Nazists or nazi supporters.
Poland wasn't Nazi state. I hope you didn't mean it but you insulted a lot of people. It had some elements of dictatoriship but repressions and control of society weren't as big as in Soviet Union. USSR wasn't a Nazi state beacuse it was a Communist state (those are two different options) but their actions and crimes were the same as Germans.
Situation in 1944 was different to situation in 1939. In the begginig of war Soviets were allied with Hitler. In 1944 they were Hitler's enemies AND Polish allies, so I think they supposed to hepl Warsaw.
Czechoslovakia was invaded that is true but it was decision of Moscow. Soviets ruled Warsaw Pact there is no doubt about it
But if you don't like this example then what about Hungary?
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