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Posts:
211
From:
Maryland, USA
Registered:
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(16 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jan 15, 2008 10:19 AM
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The THAAD missile defense system right now isn't really working. The missiles at this point have a low success rate. It'll be another couple of years and billions of dollars before it becomes an effective platform.
Also, they're against scuds and medium/short range missiles, and aren't effective against ICBMs which basically goes into space.
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Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jan 15, 2008 10:27 AM
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WWI was started by the Kaizer, WWII by Hitler, Britian isn't to blame for those meglomaniacs, but it does share blame in the destabilization of Middle Eastern, African nations and the Orient. But no country is clean from blame, we've all done our bit to cause insurrection, civil wars and dictators.
And I concur, Japan was let off the hook because we detonated two ATOM, not Nuclear people, bombs on them, and somehow they still love the US, man the Japanese must be the most forgiving people in the world. I went to Pearl Harbor on my Honeymoon, we saw the memorial for the USS Arizona, there were far more Japanese than American tourists, in Hawaii menu's are in Japanese and English and many hotels keep signs in both languages as well, it's quite interesting how many Japanese live in Hawaii given it was a place they invaded, a Japanese company also owns the only hotel in Dutch Harbor Alaska, which ironically Japan also invaded, funny isn't it?
--
Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.
John Quincy Adams
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
HUMPTY-DUMPTY WAS PUSHED!
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Edited by MrsRepublican at 01/15/2008 10:30 AM
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Posts:
11
From:
England
Registered:
8/28/07
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(18 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jan 15, 2008 10:38 AM
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Regarding the start of WW1, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand caused it along with the addition of everyone having entangling alliances.
Still seems a bit sketchy, global war over one man, I'm not convinced. Bankers/Weapons complex have been the result of wars for many years, would not surprise me if they influenced this.
Probably something to do with the Japanese government, they can educate the masses through school system and media to have an opinion of their choice, all governments do it to some extent.
I haven't been to Japan so I can't really comment on them.
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Edited by otester at 01/15/2008 10:51 AM
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Posts:
211
From:
Maryland, USA
Registered:
4/4/07
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(19 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jan 15, 2008 8:08 PM
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@Mrs.Republican
True, many factors were involved in WW1...including the build up of nationalism and entangling alliances that made war inevitable. But in many ways WW2 is a continuation of WW1. Hitler was able to capitalize on Germany's anger over WW2's ceasefire treaties.
"Japan was let off the hook because we detonated two ATOM, not Nuclear people, bombs on them"
Atomic bombs are nuclear bombs. They harness the power of the atom in a nuclear fission process. Atomic bombs are nuclear bombs. Hydrogen bombs are 'thermo'-nuclear bombs.
"it's quite interesting how many Japanese live in Hawaii given it was a place they invaded"
Japan didn't invade Hawaii. They just bombed Pearl Harbor - their soldiers didn't set foot on it. And migrants from East Asia (China, Japan, Korea, etc) composed a large percentage of Hawaii's population since they were used as cheap labor to work the sugar cane plantations.
Same with Dutch Harbor - the Japanese merely bombed it, and didn't invade it. The US later built fortifications on it to guard against any future Japanese air attacks. (the Japanese controlled stronghold islands were must farther west in the Aleutians)
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Edited by Intranetusa at 01/15/2008 8:11 PM
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Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jan 16, 2008 6:42 PM
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Fission vs fusion, nowadays our 'nukes' tend to be hydrogen as oppose to atomic, the power of modern nukes are far more powerful.
I used the wrong word, I meant both places were attacked, vs invaded. The larger bases in the aleutien chain are also further east than Dutch, Attu was one of the most secretive, you weren't even allowed off your boat if you tied up there but they have since given the island back to the natives, occassionally people have died on Attu and Kiska from picking up grenades that were still lethal.
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Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.
John Quincy Adams
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
HUMPTY-DUMPTY WAS PUSHED!
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Posts:
211
From:
Maryland, USA
Registered:
4/4/07
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(21 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jan 16, 2008 7:04 PM
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"Fission vs fusion, nowadays our 'nukes' tend to be hydrogen as oppose to atomic, the power of modern nukes are far more powerful."
True, but those fusion hydrogen bombs (with fission detonators) is a part of our strategic nuclear arsenal. Most of our nukes (~2000) are still smaller "tactical" nukes that use only the fission process via plutonium/enriched uranium.
"Kiska from picking up grenades that were still lethal"
Yep, that's also still happening in East Asia and Europe. I think just 3 or 4 years ago, a construction crew unearthed a buried, unexploded chemical rocket, which killed and injured 3 or 4 dozen people.
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Posts:
19
From:
georgia
Registered:
4/15/08
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(22 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Apr 21, 2008 10:50 AM
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> I remember reading that the US, particularly
> MacArthur saw Japan as a future ally and understood
> the fanaticism that was behind the Emperor. Many
> Japanese, who perpetrated war crimes, were indeed
> prosecuted, but many were not, just like in Germany.
>
> Should the US have deposed the Emperor, resistance
> and resentment would have flared, prolonging the
> rebuilding process. Plus, with the end of the war,
> the Soviet Union was the new threat.
>
> While Japan was conquered primarily by US/UK, Germany
> was then divided, creating an entirely different
> political situation.
>
> Anyhow, that's my 2 cents off the top of my head.
Good, concise post-especially for being "off the top of my head."
Regards,
sonofaflyboy
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Posts:
5
From:
UK - London
Registered:
5/3/08
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(23 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
May 3, 2008 11:32 AM
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Sorry...Britain started two World Wars!!!??? - doh.
Britans imperialistic tendencies over the last 2 hundred years are not nessecarily anything to be proud about. God knows I travel the world and still feel embrassed in most counties I visit due the way the UK has treated them.
However, in terms of the World War's you cannot pin any blame for starting them on the UK!! - jeezo.
We didn't invade anyone! we only re-acted in the defence of countries that we had made treaties and/or made promises too (i.e. Poland).
We went to war on a "principal" of right and wrong (certainly in the latter case) and auctioned our empire and nearly lost of country as a result. I'd say that gives the UK the morale highground. All of these came at the benefit of the U.S.
...which like it or not has essentially an empire today.
This "special relationship" c**p that we have with the U.S!!! we only finished paying you guys for the ships and aircraft you lent us during WW2 a few years back. You nearly bankrupt us...well you did. ...and you took over we left of. Trouble is, you just won't admit it!!
These last wars in Afghanistan and Iraq...why? - some pretance that they had WMD's and posed a threat ..to who??. how can they pose a threat the biggest superpower the world has even seen. ...someone who could destroy the planet 100 times over.
well, the IRA having been posing a bomb threat to the UK for decades but we do invade Ireland and declare martial law...why...because you wouldn;t let us in the new world order.
Please PLEASE Please do NOT start on Iran and Korea...just because you do not like them challenging you and/or speaking out against you. Your as bad as the UK was during empire time. Worse.. because you will not admit it.
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Posts:
5
From:
UK - London
Registered:
5/3/08
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(24 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
May 3, 2008 11:39 AM
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Ps. In answer to the original note:
1. The Japanese would only operate a small "Self Defence Force" and were forbidden to have troops on foregeign soil. Same as West Germany until late 90's.
2. Emperorer Hirihoto was forced to declare himself "NOT" a living god, which is what the Japanese believed. ...this is a big change that was forced on Japanses beliefs.
3. Prime Minister Tojo was hanged (he essentially was the one pushing for war...can't blame the Japanese royal family..same situation as royalist setup).
4. Japan is and still is occupied by U.S. Forces. Same as Germany.
5. Some stablisation is/was required in that region due to communist invasion of Manchuria and N. Korea. The Japanese had to be indocrinated to help the west shore up the falling borders of Asia....same reason why Sadamn was not knocked off perch during first gulf war...better the devil you know and "hey", he actually keeps things in order out there!
Cheers
Andrew
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2
Registered:
5/7/08
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(25 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
May 7, 2008 11:42 AM
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WW2 was the third time that Germany had invaded their neighbours (Franco-Prussian War, WWI and WWII) Germany had exterminated millions of people in concentration camps during the 1930's until 1945. Unlike Japan, Germany had the USSR focusing on it and putting political pressure on the west. This ultimately led to the breakdown of relations between the USSR and western nations resulting in the Cold War. The humane treatment of Japan was a result of Douglas MacArthur's belief in how to rebuild Japan and their relationship with the United States.
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4
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2/9/07
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(26 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
May 8, 2008 7:13 AM
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'Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?'
Four Words: Atom Bomb, The Holocaust.
Because we dropped two atom bombs and several hundred thousand tons of incendiaries on civilian targets in stark breach of the Geneva convention on raiding towns or civilian dense areas. Killing perhaps 500,000 non-combatants. This, in a nation which had no real air defenses and could have easily been brought to it's knees _without invasion_. By simply continuing the blockade and perhaps adding a systematic approach to torching their agro and rail/road food delivery systems (as was done to Germany under the Transport Plan) instead.
I think it was Hap Arnold who admitted that if we had lost, he would be the one on trial for war crimes due to the fire raids over Japanese cities.
Comparitively, the Nazis had the Holocast against innocent victims and had begun their second world war in less than a half century, causing ruinous casualties, /for which they kept exceptional records/. That made them eligible for just about any judgmental inequality you care to name in the eyes of the world.
My problem is this-
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gHzaz0mK3Ms
You view it and the ignorant bohemian parts of your mind instantly start gibbering and clawing at your subconscious.
Then you do a little digging-
>
Improved ovens were put into operation here [i.e. Baracke X] They were fitted with double doors to reduce the blast of heat when they were opened. ... There were four ovens, with a capacity of 7 or 8 bodies each at a time -- even nine when the bodies were very emaciated. Cremation lasted about two hours.* <photo 21> <photo 22> <photo 23>
In theory the ashes were to be collected and preserved in urns. The families of the dead could have the urns sent to them on payment of expenses. ... The urns were, in any case, filled with ashes collected at random, since several bodies were cremated together. In the end no more trouble was taken to fill the urns, and the ashes were buried in the grounds of the crematorium.18
* Other estimates put this time as low as 10-15 minutes:
>
http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/
And it becomes clear that both the source of the smell and the potential for multiple, rapid, body disposals is achievable, simply because these ovens are NOT being treated like traditional crematoria at all but more like bulk incinerators with incomplete reduction of human remains and early venting.
Then you take a look at a photo-
http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/photo.cgi?22
And the notion that 7-10 bodies can be inserted into 2,200`F heat without dangerously close proximity to such a narrow opening becomes arguable at best.
This problem of disposal being frontended by statements like the following from Hoess, commandant of the Auschwitz facility-
>
At peak efficiency Auschwitz had the capacity to 'get rid of ten thousand people in 24 hours,' as Rudolf Hoess would testify during the War Crimes Trials after WW2. Witness after witness, document after document produced irrefutable evidence of the crimes committed, and no witness was more shocking than Rudolf Hoess, who calmly explained how he had come to exterminate 2,5 million people.
...
Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that we built our gas chamber to accommodate 2000 people at one time whereas at Treblinka their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each.
>
http://www.auschwitz.dk/hoess.htm
Then you look at images like this-
http://www.cornerstonearts.com/pictures/Auschwitz/original/1115.jpg
And the question becomes how you manage to fit 2,000 people into that room (scale the light fixture)? Much of Auschwitz was supposedly blown by the Germans on the approach of the Russian army so I have to assume that there are additional chambers no longer in evidence. Yet architectural drawings and aerial photos persist which should be scaleable to determine, by volume, the number of people that could be forced into any given building. And how their remains would be extracted, after.
CONCLUSION:
The Holocaust was a horror of unimaginable suffering. We need to reinforce and repulse the lies about it being anything but that at every turn and attempt of the pro Nazi apologists to excuse it.
But at the same time, we need some serious fact finding so that our arguments have _the weight of truth_ behind them.
It was either History Channel or Discovery that recently did a full blown expose` of the Kennedy assassination and how a bullet could indeed strike two people as was shown, due to variations in muscle fiber densities and seating positions effecting trajectory.
This debunked fairly definitively the conspiracy theorists' principle sacred cow: 'The Magic Bullet Theory'.
I think, if we are to maintain our moral superiority about the actions and outcomes of WWII, it's time for a responsible entity like these two channels to put together a complete list of the pro-Nazi counter accusations and similarly debunk them, one by one, with overwhelming proof.
Germany cannot do it on her own. Just to /investigate/ the revisionists' claims is a federal crime there. We can. Because we have true freedom of speech, press and assembly to discuss our views. It is in no way ironic that our freedoms are what gives us the opportunity to finally put this one to bed.
Sorry to hijack your thread.
KPl.
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Edited by ch1466 at 05/08/2008 7:25 AM
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Posts:
5
From:
Shoreline, WA, USA
Registered:
6/6/09
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(27 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jun 7, 2009 11:36 AM
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1. Reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor has become lost.
2. Japan not punished as Japan was a backwater after 8/45.
Japan attacked Pearl because of the Fall of France in 1940. Japan immediately occupied airfields at Hanoi, ports of Haiphong and Cam Ranh Bay. FDR's immediate note to the I. J. Government was that for the armed forces of a government not friendly to the US to be that close to the Strait of Malacca was intolerable to the US. (Strait was only link between Indian & Pacific Ocean unless dodgem with icebergs between Australia & Antarctica was preferred.) Japan did not get out and moved into Saigon and started bulldozing fighter bases in the Delta.
Ask people about why Pearl attacked and they will cite closing the Burma Road, Rape of Nanking, a variety of other reasons. The only reason was armed proximity to the Strait. Geography rules commerce and warfare. Proximity would have resulted in conflict if the entire Indo-Chinese peninsula were a totally useless desert.
US embargos were started and escalated. The night torpedo attack on the Italian fleet at Taranto (night torpedo attack!) inspired the Japanese that torpedoes could be dropped in shallow waters without going into the mud - how did the crafty Brits do that? Pearl Harbor was shallow. Say, did the USN start deploying their torpedo nets in Pearl Harbor? (No)
Postwar Germany saw a continuation of the struggle in the Socialist world between the early 19th Century camp (Leninists) and the later 19th Century camp (ethnocentric Socialists who break eggs to make the omelet - Nazis & Fascists; other Socialists who want the eggs to decide to break themselves at the ballot box). With the later-century egg-breakers in disarray in Europe, the Leninists and other Socialists needed to hunt down and destroy all remnants. The Leninists appeared to be in the vanguard, allied with the law & order & contracts Westerners.
In the Pacific Theater, the war was exactly as in Europe, the Leninists in the vanguard allied with Westerners, and the field of battle was China. When the Soviets asked which docks to land at for the occupation of Japan, MacArthur told them such activity would be hazardous to their health and well-being. That was that. The Pacific War against enemies of Leninism continued in China and in Washington D.C., proceeding then to Hainan, the Indo-Chinese Peninsula, and in 1950 to South Korea. Japan was a backwater until the Sovietization of the mainland and all attached to it.
The liquidation of class enemies was more civilized in Europe.
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Posts:
2
Registered:
6/20/09
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(28 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jun 21, 2009 10:28 PM
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Germany was dissolved because it was occupied by two factions, the west and the east, led by the USA and USSR, respectively. Both sides could not agree to Germany's future. USSR wanted Germany to be weak, so that it would never be a threat again, and it wanted a buffer between the democratic nations of the western Europe and USA, and its heartland.
But the west learned its lesson from the consequences of the Treaty of Versaille. That treaty basically destroyed Germany, its economy was in shambles due to the payments it had to give to France and Britain. That made resentment and hate grow in the German people and allowed Hitler and the Nazis to gain power in Germany. Therefore, the West wanted Germany to be a productive nation, not the wreck that the USSR wanted it to be.
When the Cold War started Germany's fate was decided, it was divided for decades, untill the fall of the USSR.
Japan on the other hand surrendered to the USA, and was occupied by the USA only. So it was not divided up because the USSR did not have a voice in its fate. Mirror that to Korea, which was divided up between Communists and Capitalists (though South Korea spent more time as a dictatorship then a democracy).
Japan was essentially disarmed. Leaving it only a small force for defence.
Personally I find it appaling that the USA did not prosecute Japan's crimes. Especially the activities of Unit 731, Imperial Japan's bio and chem warfare research unit, which tested bio and chemical weapons on civillians and POWs. An also performed things like vivisection while the human subject was alive, and the Rape of Nanjing of course.
USA needed to not prosecute Japan's emperor because it needed him as a figurehead and a source of authority over Japan's people. Once China fell under the sole control of PRC Japan became an important base of operations for the west.
Well, it is also plain if you see Japan in the past and Japan now that Japan's imperialistic culture which formed the last decades of the 1800s was pretty much obliterated. Japan underwent a cultural and economic change, or assimilation into the western cultures.
P.S: To the people who see nuking Japan as such a horrible things, read up on Operation Downfall. The planned invasion of Japan. USA was planning of using both chemical and tactical nuclear weapons on Japan to help in the invasion. The casualty figures vary, but the initial 90 days were estimated to cost 456,000 soldiers, wounded, dead, or missing (though that was said to be one of the higher estimate). Total casualties were estimated to be 1.7 to 4 million American casualties, including 400,000 to 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. USA manufactured 500,000 Purple Hearts in anticipation of the invasion of Japan, by 2003, 120,000 of them were left. Think about that. The atom bomb forcing Japan ton surrender saved lives in the end.
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Posts:
888
From:
South Texas, where the snow never falls.
Registered:
1/12/09
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(29 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jul 3, 2009 9:23 AM
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Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Japan did not systematically march 6 million men women and children into gas chambers in order to exterminate them.
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Posts:
1,803
Registered:
10/30/07
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(30 of 40)
Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
Jul 3, 2009 12:26 PM
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> Re: Why was Japan absolved and Germany condemned?
>
> Japan did not systematically march 6 million men
> women and children into gas chambers in order to
> exterminate them.
On the other hand the Japanese experimented with biological weapons on innocent civilians and murdered quite a few. Possibly more than the Nazis just not in the same manor. The question is is the basic premise of this thread correct? Was Japan absolved?
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