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2
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6/30/05
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(1 of 22)
Jun 30, 2005 8:31 PM
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I am posting a "new" topic because I can't figure out how to get to the section where I can respond to the directed question (Does Germany bear the brunt of responsibility for World War I).
My answer would be no. The Germans do give Austria-Hungary the blank check, but Kaiser Wilhelm II telgrams Nicholas II in an effort to get Nicholas II to call off Russian mobilization. So, you can see that Germany was actively trying to defuse the situation before the shooting starts. When Nicholas II refused to stop mobilization, Kaiser Wilhelm II felt the sword thrust into his hand - his good hand. In order to survive a two front war, Germany had already determined that it must implement its Von Schlieffen Plan.
TwoTrees
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Posts:
464
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4/29/04
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(2 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Jul 1, 2005 11:09 AM
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The answer in my opinion is yes. Although other nations had war plans as stated in the show on Global View last night, the Germans are the only ones who "believed" in their plan. The Van Schlieffen plan was planned to the nth degree. Everyone thought that the Prussian General Staff was perfect and that the plan was perfect. The Germans used the situation execute their plan. Everyone else was just bluffing. The Germans had the best army in the world and it seemed to the Germans that it was time that they dominated. In my view without the Schlieffen plan there would have been no war.
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6/30/05
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(3 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Jul 1, 2005 12:22 PM
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I agree that the Von Schlieffen Plan is an important factor, but I personally don't think you can blame a country for having a plan for their own military survival.
The Von Schlieffen Plan was developed after Kaiser Wilhelm II stupidly allowed the Three Emperors' League agreement between Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Russia to expire. France threw money at the Russians, who were keen to build the Trans-Siberian railroad but couldn't afford it. Russia got its money for its railroad and France not only had an ally, but put her sworn enemy (Germany) in a situation where it had to face a two-front war.
Germany knew that it faced a two front war if it got into a conflict that involved either France or Russia. Germany was greatly outnumbered by the combined forces of France and Russia. Alfred Von Schlieffen knew that Germany's only hope at survival in a two front war with France and Russia was to take them one separately - the French first since their military took less time to get fully mobilized and because it would be possible for the Germans to defeat the French army. Russia took much longer to get mobilized and the vast expanses of Russia made the prospects of defeating Russia unlikely. I look at it this way. If you know you're about to get into a bar fight with two guys, you had better try to take one of them out completely with the first blow, or else you'll get your butt kicked by the combination of the two.
Give Kaiser Wilhelm II a lot of the blame for the start of the war, but let him share the blame with Czar Nicholas II for forcing the kaiser to put the Von Sclieffen Plan into action. Blame Serbia for sponsoring the Black Hand - the Serbian terrorist organization that assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand. The Serbians wanted to destabilize Austria-Hungary. Germany came to the support of its ally. What do allies become if you won't support them - enemies. Germany couldn't afford to lose Austria-Hungary as an ally. That would increase the number of troops they would face, and expose its common border with Austria-Hungary.
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Posts:
1
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7/2/05
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(4 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Jul 2, 2005 10:15 AM
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Germany was not inordinately to blame for WWI.I think the reason this came about is the fact that the young Clemenceau was present when Bismarck's troops(my grandfather among them) occupied Paris in 1871-72 to collect that indemnity of 1 billion francs. 47 years later, he was still around and was instrumental in blaming Germany for the war.
I have always undertood too that the call to mobilize the Russian army was incapable of being countermanded and the Kaiser knew that and acted accordingly.
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6
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7/2/05
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(5 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Jul 2, 2005 10:24 AM
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Germany is as much to blame as all powers of Europe. Russia was engulfed in their Pan - Slavic dreams of claiming all the Balkans in the name of the "oppressed" Slavic people. This can easily be noticed with the simple fact that no Russian generation had lived without a war with either Turkey (Ottomans), the Austrians or the Poles in twelve generations by the time the Crimean War broke out in 1868. Austria - Hungary was refusing to acknowledge the voices of the largest minority in the empire (more populated now than even the Hungarian minority). It was obvious that oppression as was had would lead to revolt. France had been angrily eyeing German ever since the disgrace of the Franco - Prussian War of 1871, reminiscent of "mighty" France falling to the fractured German Confederation under the cloak of Prussian rule in four months. This defeat, France never forgot, and the majority of the Versailles Treaty was based off of the German demands for victory in 1871. Britain was forever engaged in an arms race with Germany, for both sea (naval) power but also the new revolutionary land weaponry (such as tanks and machine guns). Britain also was eager to disperse the German U - Boat Fleet which, since the British had no active submariner core by 1914, Britain was always at a disadvantage to and in fear of underwater attack on their vital supply lines. Even Italy, was no help, engaging in talks to relinquish their allegiance to Germany and Austria as early as 1912, in the "event" war "might" break - out. The only major power involved that did not, in my opinion, make a direct negative impact, was Belgium, which by stalwart resistance gave France and Britain the crucial six week delay they needed to prepare for the on - coming invasion. One can talk forever about dates, mobilization and troop movements, but wars are not started because of mobilization, troop movements, or declarations of the state. War becomes reality when populations come to embellish or even cherish the idea, which in the case of 1914, the major powers all had populations enflamed with the desire for blood of justice or destiny.
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464
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4/29/04
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(6 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Jul 3, 2005 10:51 AM
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I have not read anything that I fundamentally disagree with but my take is that the Germans "believed" in their plan and everyone else was just bluffing. I do not believe that the French or the Russian were a real threat to Germany. I believe that Germany thought that they could beat both France and Russia.
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8
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7/29/05
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(7 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Jul 29, 2005 12:13 AM
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Germany told Austria it would not back her in war but the message was too late.. I guess they took it as an obligation. Frances clear aggression is somewhat responsible
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2
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12/26/05
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(8 of 22)
Dec 26, 2005 10:32 PM
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I don't blame a single nation as the cause of World War I. Instead, I blame the 'Dual Revolution'.
The Industrial Revolution, with the corresponding advances in agricultural technologies, is the first culprit. Not only did nations have the capabilities of producing vast quantities of goods, including guns and ammunition, but they also generated a large surplus of people. Armies and armaments swelled along with capabilities to supply and transport these troops.
Then there was the political revolutions that swept through Europe. No longer were people bound by divine mandate to King and Country. Instead, they were bound by their membership in their nation, and strong pride in their countries led to rampant Nationalism.
Throw in the final mix of the importance of being a colonial power (dominating global resources) along with growing internal strife from dissatisfied populations and Europe was a powder keg waiting to explode.
No, Germany does not bear the brunt of the responsibility for World War I - the nature of mankind is at fault. We build stockpiles of weapons knowing that, in the end, we cannot resist using them. The 'Dual Revolution' that swept Europe gave most of the nations all that they needed... a surplus of idle men, guns, and the ability to endlessly produce ammunition.
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42
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12/10/05
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(9 of 22)
Re: Causes of World War I
Dec 28, 2005 6:57 AM
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I agree in general that Germany can not be blamed (at least to the extent they were) for WWI. I place the blame on Nationalism. We tend to treat it as a virtue, but in fact its exclusive nature (US vs. THEM), combined with the side effects of the political and industrial revolutions that allowed true national armies, made such a war close to inevitable.
If only they'd paid attention to the Russo-Japanese War or the American Civil War to get a clue of the degree of the catastrophe that they were setting into motion. Instead they were all flushed with the alleged "glory" of war, the Napoleonic ideal of a quick and decisive victory, etc. However, it's easy to see this with hindsight.
What amazes me is that the Americans were dumb enough to enter the war, after seeing three years of incomprehensible bloodshed.
Apparently, if the people who aren't doing the fighting are making the decisions to send people to their death, they can bluster around like strutting cowboys, and convince themselves of anything.
Anyone see a parallel here?
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2
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12/30/05
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(10 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
Dec 30, 2005 9:16 PM
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I blame Czarist Russia. Russia had no vital interest commensurate with the Austrians in the Balkans. Serbian aspirations to a south slav kingdon including Bosnia and Croatia threatened the very existence of the Dual monarchy. Suppression of the Serbs was essential to the survival of Austria...compared to this, Russia had no interest in the Balkans that was remotely equivalent. The Russian mobilization was driven by their insatiable imperialism, and not vital national interest. Yet Russian mobization made a great power war inevitable, as Austria was fighting for its very survival, and Germany could not afford to have its only true ally defeated. Austria and Germany had to fight, Russia did not.
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9
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5/11/06
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(11 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
May 14, 2006 2:13 AM
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A country is not responsible for wars- it is for example the regime that controls the country who is responsible. Blaming a country is blaming a nation of people who's ideals, opinions are not identical- and can be greatly influenced/ brainwashed into agreeing with the 'collective' opinion
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Posts:
75
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5/8/06
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(12 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
May 23, 2006 1:09 PM
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Nobody could yet answer, why Germany declared war to Russia and France at 1.08.1914.
Russian mobilization as well as death of Ferdinand is pretext only.
Probably, our vision of 20th Century History is wrong.
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Posts:
576
From:
outside Dallas
Registered:
4/3/06
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(13 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
May 23, 2006 2:18 PM
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wal
I'm confused. Are you saying that Germany would have declared war on France and Russia in 1914 even with no assassination of the heir to the Austrian throne? It is hard to imagine Germany embarking on a two front war just because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
I think all the major powers in Europe bear some responsibility. They had all contributed to a situation in which some incident could set in motion a disastrous series of events. When the crisis came, diplomacy and communications could not cope. Once the train got moving, it proved impossible to stop. But nobody imagined the scope of the looming catastrophe.
JoAnna
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75
Registered:
5/8/06
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(14 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
May 24, 2006 3:15 AM
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Dear JoAnna, image today is 31.07.1914.
Your neighbors declared a mobilization allegedly going to attack You. What is Your action? You definitely should care about defence! Not about declaring a war. And, of course, You should try to avoid this war. It will take a time for the neighbors to complete the action. And remember, for about 150 years was peace with them. Simple wait for a week or two, and let them think could bring success.
What was done. Next day declaring a war to Russia, two days later war to France. Were Germans crazy?
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Posts:
576
From:
outside Dallas
Registered:
4/3/06
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(15 of 22)
Re: Germany's Responsibility
May 26, 2006 6:22 PM
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wal
I think the Germans, French and Russians were all trapped in a tragic situation. If Germany was to have any chance of victory, they had to act quickly. To wait and see would almost surely have meant defeat. The Germans defeated France in 1870 by mobilizing and attacking before the French could get their army in place. Remember that communications were much slower and less reliable than today. Military intelligence was also primitive by today's standards. Each country had very little information about what other countries were doing.
The problem is that they had created a system in which one domino falling made all the other dominos fall. Events took on a life of their own. Each country reacted to what they thought other countries were doing and it led to disaster. Germany certainly bears a great deal of responsibility but all the major power share some responsibility. They all helped create the system that dragged them into a war they could not imagine.
I wasn't sure what you meant by 150 years of peace. Who had been at peace for 150 years?
JoAnna
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