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Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Mar 24, 2006 11:09 PM
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In the Teotihuacan episode from a few weeks back, they showed Josh playing the ancient game of ulama, which I first heard about in a video from high school Spanish class several years back (okay, not that many years.) What I found interesting, though, is that in the Teo episode they said that the winners of the game were sometimes sacrificed to the gods, and not the losers, as you'd expect. When I heard that, I thought, "Huh, I could have sworn that the video I watched said that it was the losers who were sacrificed...go figure." I thought perhaps archaeologists had come to a different understanding of the game over the intervening years (not that surprising, especially since the video was probably already outdated when I saw it--my teacher had been known to show the same videos every year for 10 years straight; you know the type.)
Well, I thought no more about it, until my April issue of the Smithsonian arrived today--and guess what one of the headlines on the cover says: "Playing Ulama: You Lose, You Die." Needless to say, I read this article first. It mentions many things in common with DFT's coverage of the subject, such as the presence of ulama in the art of the era, the spiritual importance of the game, etc. In fact, both the article's writer (John Fox) and one of the principal researchers for the Ulama Project (James Brady, Cal State LA) echoed Josh's comment on how hard and surprisingly painful the ball's impact on the body is, and described similar bruises.
However, on the topic of human sacrifice, the article has this to say: "The losing players--or unlucky stand-ins captured in battle--could literally lose their heads in post-game ceremonies. In one graphic depiction on the walls of the monumental ninth-century Maya ball court at Chichen Itza...serpents and squash plants sprout from the neck of a kneeling, decapitated player... a rival player wields a stone knife and the freshly severed head as his grisly trophy." Not sure how you can tell who's the 'winner' or 'loser' of the game from this evidence--where's Kim C. Goldsmith, Ph.D in ARCHAEOLOGY (aka digdiva) when we need her?
(hmmmm...how many words long is this post? This is why Creative Writing Majors are often banned from discussion boards.)
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Mar 27, 2006 11:01 AM
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Oops...did I scare everyone off? I'd be interested to hear anyone's musings on the subject, expert or no.
To summarize, I understand how archaeologists would arrive at the conclusion that the losers were sacrificed--on the surface, it's the most "logical" and expected conclusion (at least, based on our culture.) However, the ancient Aztecs and Maya were coming from different cultural perspectives than us, obviously. So if there is something in their respective cultures--writings, art, oral histories, etc.--which suggests that the winners were actually sacrificed to the gods as some great "privilege" (which the DFT episode seemed to say), I would be interested to know what it was.
What really bothers me is that the DFT episode made the claim that the winners were sacrificed without mentioning how they got to that conclusion, and the Smithsonian article stated the exact opposite without presenting any evidence, and neither of them mentioned that archaeologists are split on this subject!
I don't expect some absolute, unquestionable answer to drop out of the sky--what I really want is to hear the evidence and arguments from both sides. Anyone out there read any other articles on the subject? Know any professors of Mesoamerican History? Anyone? Anyone?
("I didn't come for answer, but dialogue."--Doreen Gildroy)
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Mar 27, 2006 2:55 PM
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The Mayan form of ulama was different than the one played at Teotihuacan. It isn't right to compare the two when they are so different. When the Mayan's played they had to get the ball through a circle high up on a wall, the Teotihuacan's didn't do that.
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Mar 28, 2006 4:01 PM
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Point taken, angel9980. I thought of that, but I didn't want to complicate my original post by differentiating between the two. Also, the article itself, while acknowledging that ulama evolved through the civilizations of the Olmec, Maya, and Aztec, does a lot of generalizing about the game without always specifying the exact period or culture in its history. Which is understandable in a short article, but makes my question all the more difficult to answer.
There is a picture of a hoop such as you describe on one of the pages with this caption, "In some versions, players knocked it through a hoop (above, at Chichen Itza), scoring a point..." and I realize now that Chichen Itza was a Mayan city, however the article never overtly states the differences between the way the Aztecs and the Maya may have played the game. The artwork depicting the decapitation of the player is also found in Chichen Itza at a 9th-century ball court--I wonder if the Aztecs or Teotihuacanos have any similar depictions of sacrifice? (I would assume so, since DFT seemed to make the claim that there was also sacrifice at Teotihuacan.)
I've even been entertaining the possibility that in one time period or culture that the winners were sacrificed, and in another the losers, but again, it's all conjecture because I don't have the evidence to look at...hmmmmm...I may need to google this subject for more info...
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Mar 29, 2006 1:57 PM
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Sorry angel but your information on the ballcourt hoops is not quite correct - only a VERY FEW Maya courts have hoops in them and this seems to have been a variant of the game. For the most part the ballgame seems to be similar throughout Mesoamerica.
As a Mesoamerican archaeologist I have heard many diffrent versions of this (mostly from tour guides)and I do not of any definitive evidence for either belief. I have always felt that, people being people, it was probably the "away" team that got the ax but were given the opportunity to win back honor in the game. Also a lot of people had to be playing this game without bloodshed - you have to learn how to play somehow - so I always imagined little kids getting in trouble for bouncing the ball off the house walls....
If you'd like to learn more check out this bibliography as a start -
http://www.angelfire.com/zine/meso/meso/ballgamebib.txt
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Mar 29, 2006 5:17 PM
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Doc:
Thanks for the info.
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900
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Nov 11, 2006 2:55 PM
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Watching Josh playing the ancient game of ulama, I had immediately the following question: how does the impact of ball affect the bones of the hips for those playing this game for many years? 
I understand the players do not use any protection whatsoever. Josh´s bruises after playing it for only half hour or one hour do show the impact (... echoed Josh's comment on how hard and surprisingly painful the ball's impact on the body is).
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Nov 12, 2006 9:02 AM
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I guess that sometimes DFT concusions must be assumed since there's not enough cientific evidence out there and that in less that one hour the show must have a concusion. They should do their best.
Or maybe they don't have enough time to tell us where the conclusions came from.
That remembers me of The Simpson's episode with Xena when she says: "Whenever you notice something like that … a wizard did it" :o)
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970
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Charlotte
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2/21/06
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Nov 13, 2006 11:13 AM
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> Watching Josh playing the ancient game of ulama, I
> had immediately the following question: how does the
> impact of ball affect the bones of the hips for those
> playing this game for many years?
That's a good question, Rio. I don't know the answer, but I'll bet the bones probably fare better than the nerves and blood vessels that would continually be hit by the ball. I'll bet you could do some permanent damage to the blood vessels if you played that game long enough.
Josh's bruises looked SO painful. I wonder how long it took for those to go away?
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Nov 16, 2006 1:27 PM
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"Watching Josh playing the ancient game of ulama, I had immediately the following question: how does the impact of ball affect the bones of the hips for those playing this game for many years?" Rio de Janeiro Brazil
"That's a good question, Rio. I don't know the answer, but I'll bet the bones probably fare better than the nerves and blood vessels that would continually be hit by the ball. I'll bet you could do some permanent damage to the blood vessels if you played that game long enough. Josh's bruises looked SO painful. I wonder how long it took for those to go away?" Xtinanc
X, I would really like to know the correct answer! There might be a Dr. reading the boards who could give us an opinion. Perhaps my friends in Mexico City can help ...
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Posts:
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Teotihuacan, Mexico
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Jul 14, 2008 4:49 AM
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"Dr. Goldsmith" here.
Probably nobody who was interested in this topic at the time will ever get a chance to read the reply. I'm sorry about that, but I was under the weather, had an operation, trying to recover, etc. etc.
Just a couple of things I wanted to get straight here (I am guilty of only skimming through the boards, so I prob. won't answer all of what was asked about).
For one thing, "the ball game" was NEVER played at Teotihuacan. On the episode, we see mural paintings of SOME ballgames, but not "THE ball game" (kind of how basketball and football are both played with a ball, but are in no way the same game).
Teotihuacan has been thoroughly mapped and partially excavated, and we have seen no evidence whatsoever of a ballcourt, which has a special shape to it and is easily recognizable. Also, many sites that are even smaller than Teo. have more than one court, so you would expect an enormous city like Teo. to at least have 3 or 4.
Someone asked about the impact of the ball. The Mesoamerican ballgame WAS played with protection. On many artifacts related to the ballgame (especially figurines of ball players), we see that they are wearing thick, quilted cotton padding. This is especially true around the waist, but we often also see it on the legs, arms, etc. Nonetheless, I'm sure the impact was awful.
Throughout my entire career I have always heard that somebody got their head cut off after the game, possibly the winner. I have to be honest and tell you that I myself have no idea where that came from - - since I work mainly in Teo. where there IS no ball court, it isn't data particularly relevant to my research.
Anybody really interested in answers to this question may try the "Aztlan" forum on the internet. There are lots of professionals there from many areas and disciplines, and they would know better than I would.
Thanks for everybody's interest in this episode. I had a lot of fun participating in it!
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970
From:
Charlotte
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2/21/06
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Jul 21, 2008 11:23 AM
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Better late than never, and thanks for participating in this board!
Ouch. I can only imagine how many rattled bones and bruises the ancients must have received when playing this game.
Interesting to note that there was no evidence of it at Teo; it's been a while since I saw that episode, but did they say that it had been played there...did they get that wrong? Or was that just a good opportunity to talk about that subject due to the drawings found there? I think the latter, if I remember correctly.
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Re: Ulama Question (calling Dr. Kim C. Goldsmith)
Jul 24, 2008 6:26 PM
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Thank you very much, Kim! I had despaired of ever getting a reply, so this is a nice surprise. But don't feel bad--I only 'browse' these boards as well.
Hmmm...the wall art supposedly depicting the decapitation of the winner/loser? is found at Chichen Itza according to the Smithsonian article I read...may just have to look this up over at the forum you provided! Thanks again!
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