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The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 18, 2007 7:57 PM
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It's ridiculous for "Digging For The Truth" to talk about the Olmec kings while simultaneously showing the face of a modern-day mestizo. Anyone can see that the face on those huge stone heads is that of a full-blooded African. They beg the question: how did Africans arrive in the western hemisphere centuries before Columbus and the Atlantic slave trade? Thor Heyerdahl's Ra I, built by African boatmen, demonstrated the feasibility of pre-columbian voyages between Africa and Mexico. The ocean currents will carry vessels from the coast of west Africa to the very part of Mexico where the Olmec civilization flourished. Dr. Ivan Van Sertima has written about this in his definitive work "They Came Before Columbus". He has also referenced Prof. Alexander Von Wuthenau who amassed hundreds of pre-columbian African figurines even more impressive than the huge heads, since many of them evoke the coloration of the skin and texture of African hair. Prof. Von Wuthenau's book "Unexpected Faces in Ancient America" reproduces many of the figurines he collected. I invite serious students of history to read both Dr. Van Sertima's and Prof. Von Wuthenau's works for the real story of the Olmecs.
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Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 18, 2007 9:02 PM
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a very valid discussion but archaeology has yet to actually prove this definitively.
It is definitely true that people have proven(by doing it.. not by archaeology) that trans Atlantic(and trans pacific) trips in ancient sea vessels is possible. I believe that the ancient peoples of the world probably did explore and find each other.. but like I said.. we have no proof.
the fact that statues look in our perceptions to be African Americans.. does not prove that African Americans sailed to the Americas.
nice to see some good discussion on here for once.. most people on here are mindless ignorant sheep who only care about josh and how hot he was in in indianna-jones looking attire.
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Edited by Joeyd169 at 09/18/2007 9:03 PM
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Posts:
47
From:
Nonya
Registered:
9/4/07
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(3 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 19, 2007 6:52 AM
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Now this is what I enjoy abut discussions of the episodes.
I noticed too that the statues resembled quite a bit of African American. I was perplexed by this.
Thank you Joeyd169 for your input! While possible, the ancient people COULD possibly make the trans Atlantic voyage...we just don't have the proof that any country, nation, empires ever did. (except maybe the vikings or chinese-my opinion only so don't shoot me).
This is what I find so wonderful about history, it makes you think and ponder.
-RObin
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Question everything!
http://www.myspace.com/larinslight
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Posts:
970
From:
Charlotte
Registered:
2/21/06
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(4 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 19, 2007 12:27 PM
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I didn't think the Olmec heads looked especially Latin American, either.
I looked up this topic on Wikipedia to get a broader overview (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_alternative_origin_speculations )
Apparently there are a number of origins/races that people think the Olmec art looks like (for instance, you will notice a definite Asian look on the statue in the photo on the link page), and have found some kind of archaeological links to.
Mestizo can also apparently be classified as pretty much any mixed-blood race that has at least some Spanish origins.
It's certainly possible that other races of people traveled around back then...especially if their culture was already well-established...and mixed with the indigenous people of the area to create a more diversified look to their population. However, the Olmecs are considered a native/indigenous population, and like the Egyptians, fairly distinct in their lineage, in the sense that they just sort of were THERE, haha.
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Edited by xtinanc at 09/19/2007 12:53 PM
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48
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(5 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 19, 2007 9:54 PM
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I was aware of the statues and their very African appearance and was disappointed that this program did not ‘dig’ into that. The program felt so incomplete. I really do think that African people sailed across the Atlantic. Why is it such a stretch for people to give ancient cultures credit for traveling the oceans? The whole program seemed centered on how to float a rock though learning how to use crude oil to make a boat watertight tight was good. The ‘who’ of the Olmec and what happened to them wasn’t even seriously speculated on.
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970
From:
Charlotte
Registered:
2/21/06
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(6 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 20, 2007 8:54 AM
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Maybe that topic would make a good show for DFT, how come influences from the African continent keep on showing up in other parts of the world's ancient histories. It is a common theme, and it seems that the African influence is very far-reaching.
Keep in mind that they only have an hour on DFT, and they must pick a train of thought and work towards that conclusion in their programs, which means they can't investigate every theory on one program. They have to leave out a lot and they also have to consider what kind of "action items" would be more appealing to the audience (in the case of the boat-making) in making their point.
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48
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(7 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 20, 2007 12:41 PM
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An hour or not, the episode was still thin and floating heavy weights has been covered before. Did they say how many feet below ground level the stone faces were buried? Obviously this Olmec region was visited or inhabited by Africans from across the Atlantic and also Asians from across the Pacific. Then there are also the wheels on a toy dog found in Mexico, 'Fingerprints of the Gods' by Graham Hancock, p. 122, 1995, New York, Crown Trade Paperbacks.
If you want something to last, carve it in stone. Maybe the stones are "we were here" markers? Just a thought, anyway more information is sunk in the ground waiting to be discovered.
Oh, and I've read that the earth may have doubled in size. It would appear the ocean floor expanded while the continents remained in place. If true, (it looks likely) boating/sailing across large bodies of water would have been a little shorter even just 3000 years ago as the theory goes that the expansion stopped about 2500 years ago. Take a look at the ocean floor on Google Earth in the middle of the Atlantic and Pacific. The floor resembles those cracks you see in dried mud at the bottom of puddles or even baked goods for that matter.
Science can be very insular.
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Posts:
1
From:
Washington, DC
Registered:
9/20/07
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(8 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 20, 2007 9:47 PM
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The show was sickening-how do you not include Ivan Van Sertima? Why even in the event of huge African statues staring you in the face-white scholars say "its a mystery?"
I always thought true scholars are supposed to be about the "truth," as opposed to holding up racist propaganda. There is so much documented evidence available to any scholar that the Africans visited the Americas-its documented by numerous scholars, yet its a mystery?
Its almost as bad as when the media began calling black africans but culturally arabs in Sudan-white arabs and that is in 2007--it wasn't until recently that the reports caught up to the facts.
Read Runoko Rashidi, Godfrey Higgins, Gerald Massey and you will know that "africans," various types of "black" people, colonized various parts of the world---this should be documented as much as the cases when africans were enslaved. Anybody heard of the story of Othello? Right, he wasn't a slave--just a black man in Europe--a "blackamoor," or sometimes "moor."
There are a lot of notable and historic accomplishments by white people as well as other groups-but when Blacks cannot get any acknowledgement for their own accomplishments, even in the face of overwhelming evidence--it makes black people feel as if there is a conspiracy to keep the "truth" from us and it ensures that generations of black people will never trust whites as "scholars," or capable of the "truth."
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101
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3/9/06
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(9 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 21, 2007 11:50 AM
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Hi everyone, I am not going to comment on the origin of the Olmecs since I do not know much about them, but I will comment on the 'growing earth'. Sea-floor spreading is a documented fact. So is subduction (look for the trenches - Japan, pacific northwest, Alaska etc where plate collisions occur and one plate is 'diving' under another - this causes earthquakes - think Indonesia for instance. Much of this material gets melted by the heat deep in the earth and comes back up forming volcanoes). The earth is not growing larger, the crust is just shifting around a bit - an accurate geologic explanation would be too long for a post (look up continental drift, sea-floor spreading, subduction or plate tectonics in a geology text or online).
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181
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(10 of 38)
Sep 21, 2007 12:11 PM
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Folks, this is a long-discussed issue.
But I ask everyone... what makes proof on ancient intercontinental diffusion?
Facial features? Apparently not.
Sumerian Cuneiform pottery in Bolivia, found in 2004? No.
Same or similar Theologies? No.
Roman amphoras found off the coast of Bolivia? No.
Identical naming conventions? No.
Tooth morphologies are similar? No.
Purple ink die production process? No.
Egyptian-style Hieroglyphics on the temples of Teotihuacan? No.
If you take 200 cultures from the old world (eastern hemisphere), and you diffuse them in various locations in the "new" world, then you turn on the blender of cultural integrations and wars and conquests and selective exterminations, theologic integrations...and what do you have?
Virtually identical features of old world and new.
Machu Picchu. Inca
Maatiu Heteptiu. Egyptian
Ra and Inti Raimi. Egyptian and Inca, Sun God.
Tepeyacac and Iachos. Aztec and Greek.
Illinois and Hellenes. Amerindian and Greek.
Texas, Tchaus, Taisha, Teacher Amerindian, Egyptian, Chinese/Japanese, English... Divine Chief, Priest, Teacher.
Alabama. Allah/Ellah/Ea and "Bama". Temple of God.
Alaska. "In praise of"..."ska" of Allah/Ellah/Ea.
Allegheny... The family "gens/genus" of Allah/Ellah/Ea.
What road map do you need as proof? What would give you proof?
PS...Egyptians are Africans, and Egyptians up to the 18th dynasty were Nubians.
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9/21/07
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(11 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 21, 2007 12:27 PM
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To all,
These asumptions by armchair anthropologists are ridiculous. As an educated man of mexican descent I can tell you that its obvious to all serious students and latin americans that these faces DO represent the common latino indian face..my own father was of southern mexican descent a Nahautl indian to be exact and his face as well as those of my family are easily recognizable in these antiquities.
As for the assumption that africans of that time could travel cross seas is completely preposterous as they had no maritime navigational skills no knowledge and their culture was pretty much primitive/tribal. Heck..lets remember that the Aztec nation had an established society and built libraries and astronomical observatories at a time when Europeans were still crawling out of the caves.
ps
having spent many years in the middle east...I can tell you that Egyptions are NOT of african/nubian descent..you'd be hard pressed to find any man of middle eastern descent or any professor within the territories in eypgt or yeman to agree with absurd statement of african or muslim historical revisionism. An egyptian would take this as an personal insult.
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Edited by cuahotemoc at 09/21/2007 12:31 PM
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Edited by cuahotemoc at 09/21/2007 12:36 PM
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Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 21, 2007 5:46 PM
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Cuahotemoc...you will be un-pleasantly surprised at your own Mexican history, I believe.
The Aztecs are a documented tribe from what ?? 1325 AD onwards, yet had a calendar going back 4.5 epochs, suns, possibly to 3200 BC. Are you saying that in that historical context of 5200 years, no Africans came here?
Isn't Quetzalcoatl a blonde haired person with a beard?
Didn't Mocetezoma tell Cortez that he was told his ancestors came by boats, from the land where the sun rises, the East?
Are you aware that Mocetezoma told Cortez he was not the first to look like he did, that he could show him whole tribes on the coast who looked exactly like him?
Are you aware of the image of Tehoti, aka Djeheuty, aka the Ibis bird, on the western wall of Teoti-huacan?
There are literally tons of artifacts showing African influences in the ancient Americas, and Egyptian influences, and Greek influences.
And there are between 40 and 180 defined tribes in Mexico today.
But you certainly have every right to your opinion.
Greek Medusa and the Aztec Tonatiu
http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/8521/medusatonatiuh5vj.jpg
Main temple at Tenochtitlan and the Gateway to Ramses II Temple
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/8206/mountainsofsunrisebv8.gif
Tehoti, aka Djeheuty, aka Thoth, image found on Teoti-huacan
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4903/teotihuacan5na8.gif
An Egyptian ankh symbol of life, found at the top of Mt. Tlaloc, Valley of Mexico, height 4000+ meters.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sflei/460677367/
King Menes, First King of Egypt, 1st Dynasty, a Nubian
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-mdp&p=menes%20%2begypt%20%2bimage
Armchair archeologists, armchair vegetables, chairborne conformists, the world is a big place. Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the stork, and Christopher Columbus. All Fables.
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Edited by Ed Z at 09/21/2007 5:47 PM
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Edited by Ed Z at 09/21/2007 5:54 PM
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30
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(13 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 22, 2007 7:38 AM
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Well, this is a huge leap to a conclusion to say that Native American tribes were racially diverse with African and Europeans based on what can be construed as "similar" art and architecture. But, why stop there? The Olmec heads could be considered Asian, too. I mean, if you squint at one of the heads hard enough, I can even see a Foo Dog in it without too much of a stretch:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/denaid/391669139/
The point is, there are LOTS of similarities throughout the world that may or may not be related (but most likely not). Ancient Islamic patterns are very similar to ancient Celtic patterns, for example. Are they related in some genetic way? I'm guessing not.
Native art is not usually representative of the physicality of the people, anyway. Check out any Inuit mask and you'll see my point.
I'm not saying Africans weren't in the Amerias thousands of years ago, I'm just saying I need more proof than a judgement rationalized on a racial bias, (i.e. "They look African to me, so therefore they must be.")
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181
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(14 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 22, 2007 10:12 AM
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cfegrl...Exactly my point.
You give your statement..."The point is, there are LOTS of similarities throughout the world that may or may not be related (but most likely not)."
...but you offer no "proof" to the contrary.
Its like failing on Philosophy 101..."Nobody knows the truth, but everybody wants to proclaim you wrong, without any proof of their own."
No benchmark for "proof" is ever stated. No amount of visual comparisons matter, ever.
The ice age cave man, he was smart enough to find the western hemisphere 12,000 years ago.
Christopher Columbus, he is declared "first" to find the western hemisphere.
Everybody in-between was ??? stupid?
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30
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9/4/07
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(15 of 38)
Re: The Real Story of The Olmec Kings
Sep 22, 2007 12:39 PM
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The point is like a court trial, methinks--beyond reasonable doubt. Is it possible? Of course, most things are. Is it LIKELY? Not so much.
It has been proved beyond my reasonable doubt time and time again that Columbus was not the first European to reach the Americas, however to convince me that tribal groups made the trip thousands of years ago and often enough (or at least a sizeable amount of them at one time) to have altered the Native culture to such a degree, AND that any stories or knowledge of this escaped ALL oral or written first-hand histories from either culture, I'd have to say you might grasping a bit at something.
I mean, wouldn't at least the Egyptians have written something down about their summer home across the ocean? They were big fans of writing. In stone.
Of course, even written documentation must also be put into context.
For example, I remember a story I was told years ago by my physical anthropolgy instructor...apparently, when some Spaniards first sailed around the New World and arrived in Asia, someone in Asia wrote a story about this ship full of black men arriving from the East. People subsequently assumed they were referring to Africans, and there was some belief that Africans actually went to Asia at that time, but in reality, the fair-skinned Asians instead greeted Mediterranean men who had been deeply browned by the sun after being on a ship for months.
As with anything in life, things are not always what they may first appear to be.
Then again, I am a big fan of conspiracies, so maybe you're right...
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