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Posts:
3,714
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(16 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 12:09 PM
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> Which is why they've made zero progress in six
> months...
Huh? The stock market has rebounded convincingly since Bush was in office.
GITMO stumbly, we're talking about GITMO. Try to stay focused.
> Jailing terrorists. yeah, big mess.
It's not simply jailing terrorists. It's figuring out how to respect basic human rights while at the same time keeping the bad guys confined.
3 meals a day, given 1 hour outside. Allowed to pray, allowed access to red cross. Yeah, GITMO is soo a bad example of respecting human rights.
Where did I say that I'm in favor of Obama supporting the current Iranian government? I never said that, and Obama doesn't support it.
Which is why he first chose not to speak about it, and only spoke up a week later when it was politically expediant to do so. Like i said, what a profile in courage this man is.
> Did he try and seize power a la a dictator, yes.
>
Since when does trying to hold a non-binding referendum constitute seizing power as a dictator?
Since holding such a referendum was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and the legislature AND when such an attempt is outlined in the constitution as grounds for immediate removal from office.
Crack open a book every now and then kiddo. You really embarrassing yourself right now, but hey that never stopped you before.
Just thought i'd give you a little advice in case you ever wanted to exercise that underused muscle between your ears.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
4,185
From:
Oregon
Registered:
6/18/07
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(17 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 12:20 PM
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All BS aside, Gitmo needs to be dealt with, and soon. It's a polotical hot-potato, and seeing it out to some kind of end would be a huge relief.
However, I would much rather have the hard-cases shipped to any nation that has an extradition claim, than pay over ten million each to send them to a island resort!
And speaking of Foreign Policy.... where the hell is Hillary?
Isn't that supposed to be her JOB ?
She is clearly a Domestic-issue wonk, and out of her league.
The empty suit in the White house needs to hire an expert on this issue, or at least somebody who knows how to pick out the right gifts and hold events the right way.
--
I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter...
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Posts:
15,722
Registered:
7/15/04
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(18 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 12:23 PM
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> > They're working on it.
> >
> > Which is why they've made zero progress in six
> > months...
>
> Huh? The stock market has rebounded convincingly
> since Bush was in office.
>
What does the stock market have to do with Gitmo?
The last trading day of the Bush administration was Jan. 16, 2009. The market closed at 8,281.22. It is currently at 8,332.28. Since when is 6/10th of 1% a 'rebound'?
> >
> > It's one of the more difficult messes that
> Bush
> > left Obama to clean up.
> >
> > Jailing terrorists. yeah, big mess.
>
> It's not simply jailing terrorists. It's figuring out
> how to respect basic human rights while at the same
> time keeping the bad guys confined.
>
Yeah, and it is finding out the same thing your predecessor knew. That 97 of the Gitmo detainees are Yemen and that Yemeni wants $1 million buck, EACH, to take them off our hands.
Reality bites.
>
> >
> > > Yep, a nice measured response to a regime
> that
> > kills
> > > it's own people. Gosh, how brave and
> admirable.
> >
> > We have supported many brutal dictatorships
> around
> > the globe. Ever hear of the Shah?
>
> >
> > So you're now openly in favor of Obama
> supporting a
> > dictatorship in Iran that cracks down on it's
> people
> > with deadly force? Refer to my line about libs,
> > freedom, and how it's all just a talking point
> to you
> > people. At this point I'm convinced there is not
> a
> > singe stand or comment he can make that you will
> not
> > try to justify. You pal, have no ability to
> think for
> > yourself.
>
> Where did I say that I'm in favor of Obama supporting
> the current Iranian government? I never said that,
> and Obama doesn't support it. I'm convinced all
> you're up to is to make trouble, and to put words
> into people's mouths that say the opposite of what
> they believe.
>
Hell, even Hillary knew he should take a tougher stand against the killing of Iranian civilians by the mullahs in power. But President Panty Waist had too much invested in his pre-inauguration discussions with Iran to let it go down the tubes.
So he goes to Cairo and gives his "kumbaya" speech. I guess someone forgot to tell him it was Egypt that gave sanction to the Shah when the Ayatollah took over. Iran doesn't exactly have much love for Egypt.
> >
> > > First off, being elected President means
> you can
> >
> > > seize power and declare yourself dictator?
> Nice.
> >
> > Did he declare himself dictator? No.
> >
He was attempting to pull the same trick as Chavez.
> > Did he try and seize power a la a dictator,
> yes.
> >
>
> Since when does trying to hold a non-binding
> referendum constitute seizing power as a dictator?
>
Since it is only allowable by the Honduran Congress, and not their president, and since one cannot be held within 180 days of a general election.
> > Let's see... the military overthrew the
> elected
> > president of Honduras to prevent an election
> from
> > taking place. Oh, how democratic was that?
> >
No, the military acted under orders of the Honduran Supreme Court to either remove Zelaya from office and ship him off or put him in jail. But I guess you have no problems with presidents ignorning the orders of the Supreme Court?
> > Wow, you really haven't read anything about this
> at
> > all have you? If so perhaps you can tell me
> which
> > elections are being prevented. The one's
> originally
> > scheduled for November are still on.
>
> The president was trying to hold a non-binding
> referendum election. The military coup put an end to
> that.
>
He was trying to hold an ILLEGAL non-binding referendum and was impeached by the Honduran Congress and removed from office according to Honduran law.
Is that too difficult for you to understand?
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Posts:
3,714
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(19 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 12:29 PM
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All BS aside, Gitmo needs to be dealt with, and soon. It's a polotical hot-potato, and seeing it out to some kind of end would be a huge relief.
I disagree. It may have made some people uncomfortable, but as I've said it was the best option for first dealing with combatants captured. Today I think it's still the best spot and that military tribunals should be used to review each case.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
15,722
Registered:
7/15/04
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Posts:
3,714
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(21 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 12:34 PM
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The Honduran constituion has been covered by the news and by many on this board. If Stumbly is soo far behind he needs these things explained he should simply take a break and look up an article.
Reality kiddo, embrace it and learn to think for yourself.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
782
Registered:
1/12/09
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(22 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 1:46 PM
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"Drive a wedge between Iran's ruling class:
What "wedge" do you suggest?
The facts are that the ruling class in Iran is the system of clerics who are the rulers.
Yep, and not all of those clerics agree with each other. We could've made those differences much worse and fostered an environment where true reform could take plac.
The sad thing about a country like Iran is how well educated and friendly the populace really is. In a true democracy or republic I think it could and would be the shining light in the middle east. They are held back though, but a system that was put in place 30 years ago and which is held through brutal means. We could have hastened an end to that like we did in Poland 20 years ago by supporting the opposition, and undermining the regime. Heck, our very voice would've caused our allies in Europe to step back and seriously consider the legitimacy of the regime. By taking a back seat and doing as little as possible we missed a big opportunity here to gain solid ground in GWOT. So ya, I'm a little po'd about it.
Remember, whether we like it or not, we are the country who for eight years supported Iran's enemy Saddam, and to a vast number of Iranians our motivations, even just ones, will remain suspect to them. We have to act as a member of the world community on this one, not on our own.
BS. First off our "support" for Saddam was following the revolution and the embassy takeover and holding American hostages for a year. Second, our support was so limited that Iraq got far more support from China and the USSR during the war then they ever got from us. Percentage wise in terms of foreign contribution, America amouted for 5% of what Iraq got so stuff the "we supported saddam bs"
Dustdeveil, first of all, you never support the heart of your contention of driving a "wedge" byexplain just what that "wedge" would be.
Second of all, you argue the Iranian perception of the U.S. based on "what percent" of the problem" we caused or were perceived to have caused. You neglect to mention the constant drumbeat of our former President that "Iran is part of the axis of evil", which could never have fallen on deaf ears, and surely was magnified and exploited by those in power.
Again, considering the reality of the situation, just what "wedge" exactly do you propose?
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Posts:
15,722
Registered:
7/15/04
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(23 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 2:02 PM
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> Again, considering the reality of the situation, just
> what "wedge" exactly do you propose?
>
The reality of the situation was that hundreds of thousands of Iranians, knowing the power of their own government, were willing to put their lives on the line to demand free and fair elections. The reality is that this president could have appealed to his beloved U.N. and ask them to bring pressure to bare against Amadinijad and the mullahs and ask to have the elections investigated.
The reality is that we have backed other movements for freedom; i.e. Poland.
The fact is that we now have a foreign policy light weight in the Oval Office that seems to be backing dictators and radical Islamofascists.
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Posts:
3,714
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(24 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 2:52 PM
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Dustdeveil, first of all, you never support the heart of your contention of driving a "wedge" byexplain just what that "wedge" would be.
I already explained that. If the ruling class was completely and solidly unified the protests wouldn't have gotten to the level they did and Musavi wouldn't have been so open as he was about protesting.
If we had encouraged such a stance to continue to challenge the rulling authorities there would've been a wedge between those pushing for a harder crackdown and those wishing to engage in a dialouge, negotiation, and reform with the protesters.
You neglect to mention the constant drumbeat of our former President that "Iran is part of the axis of evil", which could never have fallen on deaf ears, and surely was magnified and exploited by those in power.
The key word in that sentence is "former President." Obama had a good chance to put some actions to go along with his hyped Cairo speech by standing and offering moral support to the protestors. He is not President Bush and he could have found a ready audience to hear this, heck it was clear that this is what the protestors were seeking was moral support and a world showing doubt about the legitimacy of the election and a support for the reforms they wanted.
This was SUCH an easy call and President Zero came up empty. Be understanding all you want, but Imore than a little irritated with this amateur hour debutant attitude toward foreign policy.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
4,225
Registered:
9/16/08
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(25 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 3:01 PM
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> Lets recap our oh so great President's current
> foreign policy highlights.
>
> First he announces the closing of GITMO within a year
> without a clear plan on what to do with the
> detainees.
I thought it was clear: send them to maximum security prisons in the US or to other countries that don't have torture policies?
As of this writing there still is no clear
> plan on what to do with them and we are less than 6
> months away from the planned closing. A fabulous
> start.
What plan do you want? Details? Why? We never dogged Bush about clear plans, when it was obvious he never had any from the start of the Iraq war.
>
> Second, he goes to Europe and begs forgiveness for
> America being an arrogant nation.
When did that happen? Did he say "I am sorry we are arrogant?" I thought that he also chastised them in the same breath. There you go again.
The European
> nations thank him for his apologies by refusing to
> take any GITMO detainees and making no new
> contributions to the war in Afghanistan.
Who cares? We don't want to be the wars either, but thanks to the previous administration, here we are.
>
> Third he bows while meeting the Saudi King
At least he didn't kiss him and hold his hands while walking with him. The most powerful man in the world can bow to any king, with the knowledge that he can wipe the kingdom off the earth with one phone call.
>
> Forth, he fails to drive a wedge in Iran's ruling
> class and to create doubt across the world on the
> legitimacy of the Iranian government.
That's not his job.
What did he
> fail to do? Oh, just to say he disapproved of the
> regime crack down that's all.
Sounds logical. We are trying to mend fences not set more mine fields.
>
> fifth, he follows up the Iran whiff by supporting the
> wannabe dictator of Honduras after he is ousted.
He, the EU, the UN and over 100+ other nations. Whoops, there goes that smear tactic out the window.
The
> dictator was ousted with the unanimous approval of
> the Honduran congress after President Zelaya openly
> made it his intention to violate the constitution and
> to make and illegal seizure of power. The ousting was
> bloodless, with an interim President taking the helm
> until the next round of elections can be held in
> November.
That is an internal issue, but ousting any elected official without a trial is not acceptable in any country, especially as a member of the UN. My understanding is that their constitution has impeachment proceedings and their could have been a special Prosecutor to arrest and charge him with any violations.
>
> Somehow President not so bright has objected to these
> moves despite the very democratic motivations behind
> them.
Nothing democratic about removing an elected official outside of legal means.
>
> Folks, as I list these Obama has been President for
> only six months. I'm tired of amateur hour, we need
> to call for protests nationwide to let this man know
> that we are not going to sit back and accept this
> garbage anymore. 2010 is not close enough, fix it now
> or there will be a way found to impeach him and get
> him of the white house.
Pack a long lunch. Obama is loved throught out the nation and the world. I suggest taking an aroma therapy bath or take up meditation to calm your high blood pressure. Obama ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
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Posts:
1,989
Registered:
3/20/09
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(26 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 3:16 PM
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> Please provide a link to the Honduran constitution to
> back up that assertion.
I already translated it yesterday. I am not doing it again.
> Technically he didn't seek a second term. He simply
> sought to hold a non-binding referendum on the
> subject of modifying the constitution to allow second
> terms.
Evidently, the Honduran Supreme Court disagrees with you. They are the entity that made the charge.
> It's as if our military were to remove from office a
> president who proposes a constitutional amendment to,
> oh, I don't know, ban flag burning, or making
> marriage legal only between a man and a woman.
However, If anything was specifically banned by the constitution and called for immediate removal in that document in this contingency. i would leave it to those who know the document the best to make that decision.
> No, but if you say it, it's always wrong 
Yeah, the usual liberal line.
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Posts:
3,714
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(27 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy.
Jul 2, 2009 3:50 PM
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I thought it was clear: send them to maximum security prisons in the US or to other countries that don't have torture policies?
Alright. Please name which max prisons they'll go to along with the nations that will accept them. Heck, after six months they should at least have an idea right?
> Second, he goes to Europe and begs forgiveness for
> America being an arrogant nation.
When did that happen? Did he say "I am sorry we are arrogant?" I thought that he also chastised them in the same breath. There you go again.
Yes, he did indeed apologize for America and ask forgiveness while saying "gosh, sometimes you folks can be a bit rough yourself."
Point is, as President you stand confident and you extend your hand in friendship, you don't highlight things that are bad about the very nation you hope to lead.
"Don't bash your own country" Foreign policy 101, perhaps Obama was too busy to take that course.
The European
> nations thank him for his apologies by refusing to
> take any GITMO detainees and making no new
> contributions to the war in Afghanistan.
Who cares? We don't want to be the wars either, but thanks to the previous administration, here we are.
We don't want to be in Afghanistan? nice pre 9/11 mindset, but it's not like you've ever been one to support American's interests anyhow so no big surprise there.
> Forth, he fails to drive a wedge in Iran's ruling
> class and to create doubt across the world on the
> legitimacy of the Iranian government.
That's not his job.
He's the President of the United States and the leader of the free world. Son, that is part of his job.
> fifth, he follows up the Iran whiff by supporting the
> wannabe dictator of Honduras after he is ousted.
He, the EU, the UN and over 100+ other nations. Whoops, there goes that smear tactic out the window.
Yawn, look up group think logic kiddo.
I'm seriously wondering if any lib on this board can think for themselves. The honduran coup was about as legal as they could ever come but they keep falling back on this "blah blah blah says" so arguement. Are they really so ignorant that they can't view a situation for themselves and come to their own conclusion? They really need to check with "blah blah blah" in order to be told what to think?
2010, we need to save America from these thoughtless morons.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
6,652
From:
California
Registered:
5/7/06
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(28 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy.
Jul 2, 2009 4:33 PM
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The proof is in the results. Obama's foreign policy is brilliant, and it's generating excellent results so far.
In Lebannon, a pro-West group won a surprising victory (compare that to Hezbollah winning during Bush's tenure).
In Iran, the people are fuming and demonstrating because their pro-Western candidate was clearly cheated. The Ayatollahs are on the defensive for the first time in the 30 years since the fall of the Shah. (Compare that to Ahmadenijad's victory in 2005 when Bush was messing things up).
In Iraq, people are celebrating on the streets, and praising America. American soldiers are now out of harm's way. Iraqis are learning to stand on their own two feet, and they are looking at Iran and seeing, hey, this is a lot better than rule by Ayatollah.
In Pakistan, we replaced a military dictator (friend though he was to Bush, he still seized power using the army to overthrow a democratically elected leader). Yes Pakistan is a trouble spot, but the intelligent Pakistanis are wising up, and the favorable opinion of the Taliban (which shot up during Bush's incompetency) is now plummeting.
It goes on and on. I think as time passes, the wisdom of Obama's strategy will become so clear, that (I predict) in 3 years the only thing Republicans will say about foreign affairs is "It's not really Obama who made things so nice; he's just lucky. Presidents don't really have much impact on world affairs."
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Posts:
4,225
Registered:
9/16/08
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(29 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy.
Jul 2, 2009 4:41 PM
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> I thought it was clear: send them to maximum
> security prisons in the US or to other countries that
> don't have torture policies?
>
> Alright. Please name which max prisons they'll go to
> along with the nations that will accept them. Heck,
> after six months they should at least have an idea
> right?
>
> > Second, he goes to Europe and begs forgiveness
> for
> > America being an arrogant nation.
>
> When did that happen? Did he say "I am sorry we are
> arrogant?" I thought that he also chastised them in
> the same breath. There you go again.
>
> Yes, he did indeed apologize for America and ask
> forgiveness while saying "gosh, sometimes you folks
> can be a bit rough yourself."
>
> Point is, as President you stand confident and you
> extend your hand in friendship, you don't highlight
> things that are bad about the very nation you hope to
> lead.
>
> "Don't bash your own country" Foreign policy 101,
> perhaps Obama was too busy to take that course.
>
> The European
> > nations thank him for his apologies by refusing to
>
> > take any GITMO detainees and making no new
> > contributions to the war in Afghanistan.
>
> Who cares? We don't want to be the wars either, but
> thanks to the previous administration, here we are.
>
>
> We don't want to be in Afghanistan? nice pre 9/11
> mindset, but it's not like you've ever been one to
> support American's interests anyhow so no big
> surprise there.
>
> > Forth, he fails to drive a wedge in Iran's
> ruling
> > class and to create doubt across the world on the
> > legitimacy of the Iranian government.
>
> That's not his job.
>
> He's the President of the United States and the
> leader of the free world. Son, that is part of his
> job.
>
> > fifth, he follows up the Iran whiff by
> supporting the
> > wannabe dictator of Honduras after he is ousted.
>
> He, the EU, the UN and over 100+ other nations.
> Whoops, there goes that smear tactic out the window.
>
>
> Yawn, look up group think logic kiddo.
>
> I'm seriously wondering if any lib on this board can
> think for themselves. The honduran coup was about as
> legal as they could ever come but they keep falling
> back on this "blah blah blah says" so arguement. Are
> they really so ignorant that they can't view a
> situation for themselves and come to their own
> conclusion? They really need to check with "blah blah
> blah" in order to be told what to think?
Hello pot?
> 2010, we need to save America from these thoughtless
> morons.
>
> -DD
>
> --
> A wise and frugal government, which shall leave
> men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry
> and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of
> labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of
> good government
> -Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
1,371
From:
Poconos, PA
Registered:
2/28/06
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(30 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 5:00 PM
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Huh? The stock market has rebounded convincingly since Bush was in office.
NO, you're mistaken; the actual graph of the market looks like the graph of the bouncing of an underinflated basketball. We'll call X-axis "T" (For time) and the Y-axis "H" for height. If you stopped pecking away at this for 5 minutes, you'd notice that we're AGAIN on the "down swing" portion of the cycle. This makes the 3rd bounce, since NWO-Bama installed a throne in the oval office, and the peaks are getting lower each bounce.
Kinda EXACTLY like the "Temp V. Time" graph of global climate.
It's not simply jailing terrorists. It's figuring out how to respect basic human rights while at the same time keeping the bad guys confined.
A) They're NOT "bad guys", they're terrorists.
B) They don't DESERVE human rights, they're terrorists.
C) Rinse
D) Repeat
Where did I say that I'm in favor of Obama supporting the current Iranian government? I never said that, and Obama doesn't support it. I'm convinced all you're up to is to make trouble, and to put words into people's mouths that say the opposite of what they believe.
Obama's administration has come out more forcefully against:
A) Christians (But, he phrased it so that he was only talking about WHITE Christians)...
B) Gun Owners (But, he phrased it so that he was only talking about WHITE Gun Owners)...
C) Combat Vets (But, he phrased it so that he was only talking about WHITE Combat Vets)...
D) Conservatives (ibid)
Than he has against Iran ... you know ... the terrorists trainers ...?
How about "basic human rights" for HONORABLE US CITIZENS FIRST, EH?
Since when does trying to hold a non-binding referendum constitute seizing power as a dictator?
Get ready for the sequal to "Tampering with Banana Republics - The Clinton-Carter-Aristide Story". Yeah - the first one was SUCH a hit!! (Didn't they give him the boot twice?)
The president was trying to hold a non-binding referendum election. The military coup put an end to that.
Really - is that like NWO-Bama's pledge that he "would NOT raise taxes on people earning less than $250k ... then he attacks all essential services, utilities, etc and wipes out 3/4 of the car dealerships - thus creating competition-free monopolies; THUS raising the prices of everything on all us little people? That kind of "non-binding referendum"?
I wonder what role United Fruit Company played in all this.
As a satisfied stockholder; I could care less about your musings.
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