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Posts:
3,713
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(1 of 73)
President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 7:09 PM
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Lets recap our oh so great President's current foreign policy highlights.
First he announces the closing of GITMO within a year without a clear plan on what to do with the detainees. As of this writing there still is no clear plan on what to do with them and we are less than 6 months away from the planned closing. A fabulous start.
Second, he goes to Europe and begs forgiveness for America being an arrogant nation. The European nations thank him for his apologies by refusing to take any GITMO detainees and making no new contributions to the war in Afghanistan.
Third he bows while meeting the Saudi King
Forth, he fails to drive a wedge in Iran's ruling class and to create doubt across the world on the legitimacy of the Iranian government. What did he fail to do? Oh, just to say he disapproved of the regime crack down that's all.
fifth, he follows up the Iran whiff by supporting the wannabe dictator of Honduras after he is ousted. The dictator was ousted with the unanimous approval of the Honduran congress after President Zelaya openly made it his intention to violate the constitution and to make and illegal seizure of power. The ousting was bloodless, with an interim President taking the helm until the next round of elections can be held in November.
Somehow President not so bright has objected to these moves despite the very democratic motivations behind them.
Folks, as I list these Obama has been President for only six months. I'm tired of amateur hour, we need to call for protests nationwide to let this man know that we are not going to sit back and accept this garbage anymore. 2010 is not close enough, fix it now or there will be a way found to impeach him and get him of the white house.
-DD
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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
8,089
From:
What Time Is It? It's Pay Back Time!
Registered:
10/25/06
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(2 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 7:18 PM
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> Lets recap our oh so great President's current
> foreign policy highlights.
>
> First he announces the closing of GITMO within a year
> without a clear plan on what to do with the
> detainees. As of this writing there still is no clear
> plan on what to do with them and we are less than 6
> months away from the planned closing. A fabulous
> start.
Since when is six months not enough time to determine what to do with them?
>
> Second, he goes to Europe and begs forgiveness for
> America being an arrogant nation. The European
> nations thank him for his apologies by refusing to
> take any GITMO detainees and making no new
> contributions to the war in Afghanistan.
Obama didn't beg for anything. You've been reading too much right wing tripe.
>
> Third he bows while meeting the Saudi King
>
As opposed to kissing him, like Bush? And Obama's bow, it was slight and cursory. Don't I recall the right going bonkers because Michelle touched the Queen and didn't curtsy?
> Forth, he fails to drive a wedge in Iran's ruling
> class and to create doubt across the world on the
> legitimacy of the Iranian government. What did he
> fail to do? Oh, just to say he disapproved of the
> regime crack down that's all.
>
It's still not clear who won the election. Obama's response was measured and rational. Something I guess the Right doesn't grasp.
> fifth, he follows up the Iran whiff by supporting the
> wannabe dictator of Honduras after he is ousted. The
> dictator was ousted with the unanimous approval of
> the Honduran congress after President Zelaya openly
> made it his intention to violate the constitution and
> to make and illegal seizure of power. The ousting was
> bloodless, with an interim President taking the helm
> until the next round of elections can be held in
> November.
It was the overthrow of a democratically elected president of a sovereign nation. The coup was NOT legal even by lax Honduran standards. If the president had committed some crime, he should have been impeached instead of given the old coup détat. Obama was smart to condemn it, thereby absolving the USA of any reasonable suspicion of having been behind the coup all along. And the last thing he should do is get involved in the internal affairs of a banana republic.
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"Facts Are Stupid Things" - Ronald Reagan
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Posts:
3,713
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(3 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 7:26 PM
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Since when is six months not enough time to determine what to do with them?
Since you're dealing with over 200 detainees and don't even have a clue AFTER six months where they are going to go. That's when.
It's still not clear who won the election. Obama's response was measured and rational. Something I guess the Right doesn't grasp.
Yep, a nice measured response to a regime that kills it's own people. Gosh, how brave and admirable.
It was the overthrow of a democratically elected president of a sovereign nation. The coup was NOT legal even by lax Honduran standards.
First off, being elected President means you can seize power and declare yourself dictator? Nice.
Second, the "coup" was legal and actually keeps the ideals of democracy alive in Honduras. Didn't libs used to pride themselves on supporting freedom and democracy for those that seek it? Oh wait, it was all just another talking point right?
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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
6,446
Registered:
8/12/05
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(4 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 7:34 PM
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Amateur hour?!! More like amateur year. He has exhibited a cluelessness on foreign policy unlike any other president in decades at a minimum from day 1 on the campaign trail.
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If it was not for hypocrisy, the Left would have no argument at all!
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Posts:
3,713
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(5 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 8:08 PM
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TA,
You knew we were in trouble when he made his "i'll meet dictator's without preconditions" statement. He had no idea what he was talking about and later tried to backtrack saying "I stand by what I say, I will meet without precondtions, but there will have to be proper 'preparations' before any such meeting."
That's Obama, insisting you were right while changind your original stance. Amateur man, amateur President.
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
8,089
From:
What Time Is It? It's Pay Back Time!
Registered:
10/25/06
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(6 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 8:52 PM
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> Since when is six months not enough time to
> determine what to do with them?
>
> Since you're dealing with over 200 detainees and
> don't even have a clue AFTER six months where they
> are going to go. That's when.
They're working on it. It's one of the more difficult messes that Bush left Obama to clean up.
>
> It's still not clear who won the election. Obama's
> response was measured and rational. Something I guess
> the Right doesn't grasp.
>
> Yep, a nice measured response to a regime that kills
> it's own people. Gosh, how brave and admirable.
We have supported many brutal dictatorships around the globe. Ever hear of the Shah?
>
> It was the overthrow of a democratically elected
> president of a sovereign nation. The coup was NOT
> legal even by lax Honduran standards.
>
> First off, being elected President means you can
> seize power and declare yourself dictator? Nice.
Did he declare himself dictator? No.
>
> Second, the "coup" was legal and actually keeps the
> ideals of democracy alive in Honduras. Didn't libs
> used to pride themselves on supporting freedom and
> democracy for those that seek it? Oh wait, it was all
> just another talking point right?
Let's see... the military overthrew the elected president of Honduras to prevent an election from taking place. Oh, how democratic was that?
--
"Facts Are Stupid Things" - Ronald Reagan
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Posts:
15,406
Registered:
7/22/05
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(7 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 8:58 PM
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> Amateur hour?!! More like amateur year. He has
> exhibited a cluelessness on foreign policy unlike any
> other president in decades at a minimum from day 1 on
> the campaign trail.
>
> --
> If it was not for hypocrisy, the Left would have no
> argument at all!
The commies disagree with ya. 
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Posts:
8,089
From:
What Time Is It? It's Pay Back Time!
Registered:
10/25/06
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(8 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 1, 2009 9:04 PM
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Just wait. In a year or two you'll be eating your words.
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"Facts Are Stupid Things" - Ronald Reagan
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Posts:
3,713
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(9 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 7:55 AM
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They're working on it.
Which is why they've made zero progress in six months...
It's one of the more difficult messes that Bush left Obama to clean up.
Jailing terrorists. yeah, big mess.
> Yep, a nice measured response to a regime that kills
> it's own people. Gosh, how brave and admirable.
We have supported many brutal dictatorships around the globe. Ever hear of the Shah?
So you're now openly in favor of Obama supporting a dictatorship in Iran that cracks down on it's people with deadly force? Refer to my line about libs, freedom, and how it's all just a talking point to you people. At this point I'm convinced there is not a singe stand or comment he can make that you will not try to justify. You pal, have no ability to think for yourself.
> First off, being elected President means you can
> seize power and declare yourself dictator? Nice.
Did he declare himself dictator? No.
Did he try and seize power a la a dictator, yes.
Let's see... the military overthrew the elected president of Honduras to prevent an election from taking place. Oh, how democratic was that?
Wow, you really haven't read anything about this at all have you? If so perhaps you can tell me which elections are being prevented. The one's originally scheduled for November are still on.
Stumbly, once again you underperform. Something I'm sure you're used to hearing.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
1,989
Registered:
3/20/09
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(10 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 8:48 AM
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> It was the overthrow of a democratically elected
> president of a sovereign nation. The coup was NOT
> legal even by lax Honduran standards.
I have explained in great detail that this was in fact in line with the Honduran constitution.
If the
> president had committed some crime, he should have
> been impeached instead of given the old coup détat.
As noted the constitution states that the act of seeking a second term is grounds for IMMEDIATE removal.
> Obama was smart to condemn it, thereby absolving the
> USA of any reasonable suspicion of having been behind
> the coup all along. And the last thing he should do
> is get involved in the internal affairs of a banana
> republic.
Of course, if Obama says it, it is always right.
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Posts:
782
Registered:
1/12/09
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(11 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 8:53 AM
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"Lets recap our oh so great President's current foreign policy highlights.
First he announces the closing of GITMO within a year without a clear plan on what to do with the detainees. As of this writing there still is no clear plan on what to do with them and we are less than 6 months away from the planned closing. A fabulous start.
Second, he goes to Europe and begs forgiveness for America being an arrogant nation. The European nations thank him for his apologies by refusing to take any GITMO detainees and making no new contributions to the war in Afghanistan.
Third he bows while meeting the Saudi King
Forth, he fails to drive a wedge in Iran's ruling class and to create doubt across the world on the legitimacy of the Iranian government. What did he fail to do? Oh, just to say he disapproved of the regime crack down that's all.
fifth, he follows up the Iran whiff by supporting the wannabe dictator of Honduras after he is ousted. The dictator was ousted with the unanimous approval of the Honduran congress after President Zelaya openly made it his intention to violate the constitution and to make and illegal seizure of power. The ousting was bloodless, with an interim President taking the helm until the next round of elections can be held in November."
Hello dustdevil. I think after we get rid of the "Saudi bow" and a little more of the fluff here, we have a couple issues that can be fairly argued, and one on which I mmight agree.
First of all, "gitmo":
The closing of gitmo was clearly an attempt to change a perception; a peception which was excaserbated by abu graab, Cheney's constant rants on torture, etc.. Attempts to change a perception does not mean necessaritly that it would have any effect on our enemies, but it may have an effect on our allies who's help we desperately need right now. Whether or not things have not realistically changed regarding the outcome of the prisoners, the perception of the U.S. has changed to a degree positively, and in the end we are no worse off than before the closing.
Drive a wedge between Iran's ruling class:
What "wedge" do you suggest?
The facts are that the ruling class in Iran is the system of clerics who are the rulers.
The seeds of any social revolution in Iran right now are still confined to disputes over the far less significant "puppets" of the clerics.
Until those disatisfied citizens of iran put two and two together and realize their plight stems from the cleric system there is little the U.S. can do but...
speak up as one world unit against attrocities (which we are doing). Were we to inject ourselves now into the dispute now, we would fall victim to what the U.K. is already experiencing; ....
an opportunity for the clerics to manipulate and polarize the uprising into a U.S. vs iran situation, thereby defusing it. The uprising must gain momentum from within if it is to ever suceed. The people must have the opportunity to see for themselves who their real enemy is, and that can't happen if the "U.S." gets in the way.
Remember, whether we like it or not, we are the country who for eight years supported Iran's enemy Saddam, and to a vast number of Iranians our motivations, even just ones, will remain suspect to them. We have to act as a member of the world community on this one, not on our own.
Regarding Honduras, this is where I agree with you. It seems pretty clear by now that the President of Honduras was at fault and that the deomocratically elected government of Honduras should have the last word if we're true to the ideals of democracy. Just because the world seems to support the president on this, does not mean the world is right.
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Posts:
1,989
Registered:
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(12 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 9:00 AM
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I said it before in my Post that Obama is a single termer. Things are shaping up for him to be Jimmy Carter Part II.
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Posts:
3,713
From:
Virginia Beach, VA
Registered:
11/3/06
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(13 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 11:37 AM
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The closing of gitmo was clearly an attempt to change a perception; a peception which was excaserbated by abu graab, Cheney's constant rants on torture, etc..
Problem is this "perception" contrasted with the need for national security and a valid course of action with the detainees. GITMO was the best solution at the time, and now currently looking at it, it still looks like the best solution. The President started his term by pretty much letting everybody know if you're european, or an American who hate's his nation and whines loud enough, he'll bend to your will.
Attempts to change a perception does not mean necessaritly that it would have any effect on our enemies, but it may have an effect on our allies who's help we desperately need right now.
And we've gotten zilch for it. President zero in action.
Drive a wedge between Iran's ruling class:
What "wedge" do you suggest?
The facts are that the ruling class in Iran is the system of clerics who are the rulers.
Yep, and not all of those clerics agree with each other. We could've made those differences much worse and fostered an environment where true reform could take plac.
The sad thing about a country like Iran is how well educated and friendly the populace really is. In a true democracy or republic I think it could and would be the shining light in the middle east. They are held back though, but a system that was put in place 30 years ago and which is held through brutal means. We could have hastened an end to that like we did in Poland 20 years ago by supporting the opposition, and undermining the regime. Heck, our very voice would've caused our allies in Europe to step back and seriously consider the legitimacy of the regime. By taking a back seat and doing as little as possible we missed a big opportunity here to gain solid ground in GWOT. So ya, I'm a little po'd about it.
Remember, whether we like it or not, we are the country who for eight years supported Iran's enemy Saddam, and to a vast number of Iranians our motivations, even just ones, will remain suspect to them. We have to act as a member of the world community on this one, not on our own.
BS. First off our "support" for Saddam was following the revolution and the embassy takeover and holding American hostages for a year. Second, our support was so limited that Iraq got far more support from China and the USSR during the war then they ever got from us. Percentage wise in terms of foreign contribution, America amouted for 5% of what Iraq got so stuff the "we supported saddam bs"
Regarding Honduras, this is where I agree with you. It seems pretty clear by now that the President of Honduras was at fault and that the deomocratically elected government of Honduras should have the last word if we're true to the ideals of democracy. Just because the world seems to support the president on this, does not mean the world is right.
Thank you, on this one we agree.
To add a bit though, this one really was the tipping point for me. I have remained open to Obama's policies and I've offered my criticisms and judgements as these decisions were made. I was irked about Iran, but to mess up sooo badly in Honduras really has me PO'd. Using a term "amateur" is to good for this man right now. He better start getting it right or I swear to God if it's the last thing I do he will at best be a single termer if he's not impeached first for incompetance.
-DD
--
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
-Thomas Jefferson
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Posts:
8,089
From:
What Time Is It? It's Pay Back Time!
Registered:
10/25/06
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(14 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 11:52 AM
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> They're working on it.
>
> Which is why they've made zero progress in six
> months...
Huh? The stock market has rebounded convincingly since Bush was in office.
>
> It's one of the more difficult messes that Bush
> left Obama to clean up.
>
> Jailing terrorists. yeah, big mess.
It's not simply jailing terrorists. It's figuring out how to respect basic human rights while at the same time keeping the bad guys confined.
>
> > Yep, a nice measured response to a regime that
> kills
> > it's own people. Gosh, how brave and admirable.
>
> We have supported many brutal dictatorships around
> the globe. Ever hear of the Shah?
>
> So you're now openly in favor of Obama supporting a
> dictatorship in Iran that cracks down on it's people
> with deadly force? Refer to my line about libs,
> freedom, and how it's all just a talking point to you
> people. At this point I'm convinced there is not a
> singe stand or comment he can make that you will not
> try to justify. You pal, have no ability to think for
> yourself.
Where did I say that I'm in favor of Obama supporting the current Iranian government? I never said that, and Obama doesn't support it. I'm convinced all you're up to is to make trouble, and to put words into people's mouths that say the opposite of what they believe.
>
> > First off, being elected President means you can
>
> > seize power and declare yourself dictator? Nice.
>
> Did he declare himself dictator? No.
>
> Did he try and seize power a la a dictator, yes.
>
Since when does trying to hold a non-binding referendum constitute seizing power as a dictator?
> Let's see... the military overthrew the elected
> president of Honduras to prevent an election from
> taking place. Oh, how democratic was that?
>
> Wow, you really haven't read anything about this at
> all have you? If so perhaps you can tell me which
> elections are being prevented. The one's originally
> scheduled for November are still on.
The president was trying to hold a non-binding referendum election. The military coup put an end to that.
I wonder what role United Fruit Company played in all this.
--
"Facts Are Stupid Things" - Ronald Reagan
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Posts:
8,089
From:
What Time Is It? It's Pay Back Time!
Registered:
10/25/06
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(15 of 73)
Re: President Obama's amateur hour foreign policy
Jul 2, 2009 11:57 AM
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> > It was the overthrow of a democratically
> elected
> > president of a sovereign nation. The coup was
> NOT
> > legal even by lax Honduran standards.
>
> I have explained in great detail that this was in
> fact in line with the Honduran constitution.
Please provide a link to the Honduran constitution to back up that assertion.
>
> If the
> > president had committed some crime, he should
> have
> > been impeached instead of given the old coup
> détat.
>
> As noted the constitution states that the act of
> seeking a second term is grounds for IMMEDIATE
> removal.
Technically he didn't seek a second term. He simply sought to hold a non-binding referendum on the subject of modifying the constitution to allow second terms.
It's as if our military were to remove from office a president who proposes a constitutional amendment to, oh, I don't know, ban flag burning, or making marriage legal only between a man and a woman.
>
> > Obama was smart to condemn it, thereby absolving
> the
> > USA of any reasonable suspicion of having been
> behind
> > the coup all along. And the last thing he should
> do
> > is get involved in the internal affairs of a
> banana
> > republic.
>
> Of course, if Obama says it, it is always right.
No, but if you say it, it's always wrong 
--
"Facts Are Stupid Things" - Ronald Reagan
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