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Posts:
7
Registered:
11/3/06
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(3 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Nov 3, 2006 9:06 PM
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There was no VietNamese pilot named "Tomb." Tomb is not even a VietNamese name. That was a press concoction. But the Mig-17 that was killed (with its pilot) that day DID exist; it was photographed on the ramp sitting next to the Mig-21 that this pilot also used. Both bore the same 8 red star kill markings and the -17 was painted (w/correct nose number) used in this show. Who the pilot was (and he was clearly very experienced) we'll probably never know. But there are two reasons why he would favor the Mig-17 over the Mig-21: the early Mig-21PFs supplied to North Vietnam during the war did not have any guns, and the Mig-17 was superior to the -21 in manoueverability in every way...and it had the same three cannon on it that the Mig-15 used so devastingly in Korea 10 years before.
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Posts:
3
From:
NJ
Registered:
11/4/06
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(4 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Nov 4, 2006 7:01 PM
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As for Col. Tomb? Thought I'd add my 2 cents. I remember seeing a book of photography in the 1960s by a French photog named Marc Riboud titled "FACE OF NORTH VIETNAM." In it, I recall seeing a shot of a flyer showing his pals the tactics he used going against an American plane. The caption had his name as "Toon" and also said he was North Viet Nam's leading ace. When I first heard the story about Cunningham/Driscoll vs "Tomb" I always thought it must have been some kind of transliteration error. In my opinion, this "Toon" or "Tomb" guy did exist!
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Edited by SFC at 11/04/2006 7:05 PM
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Posts:
7
From:
Tejas
Registered:
11/4/06
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(5 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Nov 5, 2006 11:04 PM
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"If" there was a Col. 'Tomb',it would likely have been Tum,as there is a Kon Tum Province in V.N.
If the story is true,I believe it was likely a Soviet vet.
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Posts:
14
From:
La Mesa, CA
Registered:
11/5/06
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(6 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Nov 9, 2006 10:37 AM
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Don't you guys get it? Col. Tomb, If you tangle with him you're gonna be dead, in your "Tomb". You know like Widow Maker, Flying prostitute, SNAFU, FUBAR, Whistling death, forktailed devil, Butcher bird, Bought the farm, Auger in, etc.
Dan
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Posts:
243
From:
United States of America
Registered:
12/7/06
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(7 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Dec 7, 2006 10:29 AM
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Guys --- from someone who was there flying the double ugly in the same sky at the same time as Randy, Steve, Dan Cherry, Olmsted, Robin, etc. I think a few points need clarification. First, the engagements were pretty much as you see them, .i.e., Vietnam was not a knuckle to knuckle, or knifes inside a phone booth fight like Korea and WW II. The engagements were rapid hit and run to minimize the vulnerabilities of the F-4 (a turning fight). Additionally, the Migs main attack was a one high speed pass through the formation and then run for home and only seldom would they stay and fight. Second, during my tours there was a Col. Tomb -- Toom -- Tun or whatever, that we were briefed on at pre mission intel. briefings. Third, with respect to "where were the other F-4's that were there 30 seconds ago. In an air-to-air battle you can get separated very quickly if not alert, or engaged by multiple threats. And in the case of Randy's engagements, his whole flights hands were full and in 30 seconds you could end up some 10 to 15 miles away from your other aircraft. The key here is getting back together as quickly as possible for mutual support. Fourth, 30 miles to the beach at the energy levels they were using would only be about 3.5 minutes at the most, with another 5 to 10 minutes to the boat so fuel for the Navy was not as big a consideration as the Air Force birds who had several hundred miles to go before they reached home base. And Fifth (and Last), is that the same holds true for fuel management during engagements. The Navy came off the boats with a full load of fuel some 50 plus miles off the coast and 7 minutes later were in the combat area. At high military power or low burner power they had a good 30 minutes loiter time to play with the bad guys.
One last thought is that of neglecting the GIB (AF) or RIO (Navy) in the DOGFIGHT presentations to date. While they may not be getting their due credit in these offerings there is no doubt in my ever-loving mind that all these front seat drivers hold them in the highest regard and mine was 100% instrumental in our downing a 21.
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Posts:
40
From:
NEW YORK CITY
Registered:
11/27/06
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(8 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Dec 7, 2006 11:34 AM
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That says it all Snake....
Semper Fi!
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Posts:
3
Registered:
12/8/06
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(9 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Dec 8, 2006 9:45 PM
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Thanks Snake, and a tip 'o the hat to all you guys that flew the 'friendly skies'. I was on a tin can usually doing plane guard, and I have a healthy respect for all of you.
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Posts:
14
From:
La Mesa, CA
Registered:
11/5/06
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(10 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Dec 16, 2006 11:04 PM
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snake1-
Thanks for the info from someone who was there. What was the date of your MiG 21 kill?
Dan
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Posts:
7
Registered:
11/3/06
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(11 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Mar 3, 2007 1:54 AM
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Careful! Your bias is showing!
The story and the fight are true. Almost all of it was recorded on radio intercepts. The name "Tomb" is wrong. There wasn't a pilot in the NVAF by that name; that name was an invention by the media. But other than the pilot's name, everything else was depicted correctly.
This pilot WAS a one of the NVAF's aces, and something of a VIP. He had both a Mig-21 and a Mig-17 assigned to him, and there is photographic proof of this: both sitting on the tarmac and both with the same 5-digit nose number. The '21 is natural metal and the '17 in the camoflaged scheme depicted in the episode.
And, whoever he was, he knew his aircraft. According to Vietnamese sources, he most often flew the '17 because it was a much better dogfighter! And THAT is a good enough reason to explain it.
Faster and newer is NOT necessarily better. That is a lesson the USAF is setting itself up to have to re-learn the hard way, and they're gonna be learning it a lot sooner than they think. Last year, in a joint training excercise with the Indian Air Force, the USAF sent a few of its best F-16 and F-15 crews to mix it up. They went in thinking their high-tech equipment and tactics was going to give them an easy win, and they proceeded to get their butts waxed by a bunch of guys flying Mig-21's and Mig-29's!!
--------------
> Much controversy surrounds this encounter as being
> nothing more than american propaganda. 2 researchers
> in the late '70s or '80s traveled to Vietnam trying
> to find any records of a Col. Tomb flying in the
> North Vietnamese Air Force. They never found any.
> Did Tomb exist? If Tomb did not exist, was he a
> a covert Russian Ace flying for the North? Cunningham
> said he can see the pilot inside his MiG when they
> were dueling each other. Clearly, Cunningham
> mentions, " ..he had on a little set of "GOMER"
> goggles...a little "GOMER" scarf.." We may never
> know, but why would Tomb fly a MiG-17 and not a more
> superior MiG-21? Where were the other American F-4s
> that Cunningham was with 30sec. ago? Could this be a
> false story to boost a faltering morale? Maybe, we
> know Cunningham has lied in the past...
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Posts:
243
From:
United States of America
Registered:
12/7/06
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(12 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Mar 3, 2007 6:35 AM
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Dragoon 173
Please read my eariler submission of this thread on Col. Tomb.
The Snake
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Posts:
25
From:
Va Bch
Registered:
3/4/07
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(13 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
Mar 5, 2007 5:10 PM
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According to "Duke", after his epic flight he went ashore and the Intel folks played a tape of intercepted comms between his opponent and his GCI controllers. They are the ones who told him the skilled pilot was "Tomb" which could be "Toon" or something else as alot of times intercepted names don't translate well. The guy was senior enough to argue when they told him to disengage. Researchers going to DRV typically don't get much more than party line (no pun intended). I doubt the VPAF wanted (or wants) to admit they lost one of their leading aces to a young Lieutenant. As to why he had to punch out, one of my compadres at work was in the F-4 that joined on Randy when they were bugging out and another was also in VF-96. Randy was somewhat controversial and more so now, but either of them doubt his story nor do other VF-96 alums I have met over the years.
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Posts:
4
From:
Rome, NY
Registered:
5/28/07
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(14 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
May 29, 2007 2:06 PM
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Cunningham's encounter was the first dogfight I saw on TV. The only thing I could think of was how on earth did he get into this situation. There's just no way a Mig17 can match an F4 in a vertical scissors! (I was an F4 pilot in SEA combat)
I find the story doubful at least in the details.
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Posts:
5
From:
Riverside,CA
Registered:
5/30/07
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(15 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
May 30, 2007 1:25 PM
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This is defiantly an interesting topic. I personally first saw the name being spelled “Toon” I thought this was the name and didn’t question it. Then I started seeing this “Tomb” The name “Tomb” clearly doesn’t mean anything in Vietnamese/Chinese but it could be how it is pronounced phonetically from the spelling of a name (Just a possibility). As for “were the name and the kill just for propaganda?” It probably not just propaganda who would the propaganda be for? Most of the American public wouldn’t have cared by June of ’72. What mattered really was “Duke” and “Irish” became the first Ace team of Vietnam. That was the important headline. So I guess taking everything into account I think that the pilot was Vietnamese, and based on “Duke and Irishs’” explanation of the fight that he was one of the better pilots of North Vietnam.
The argument was made that Cunningham could be lying because “he lied in the past”
I don’t think that’s true. What is true is that he used his position in congress to profit (being bribed). However he did not lie about it. The plea he entered was “GUILTY” not “NO CONTEST”, or “NOT GULITY” He knew what he did and he admitted to it. And I respect him for not wasting the taxpayer’s dollars by having to go through a lengthy trial and appeals and all that other mess. He tried to use the system to make money and for that he is in jail but I personally still respect him for what he did in Vietnam, at TOPGUN along with “Irish” and for admitting what he did.
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Posts:
138
From:
Conroe, Texas
Registered:
1/24/07
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(16 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
May 30, 2007 2:15 PM
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I still have great respect for Duke Cunningham's accomplishments while serving in the Navy. It grieves me that he spoiled all of that honorable service by misusing his office for personal gain. But at least he owned up to what he did and is now serving his time.
And if you don't accept Cunningham's version of what happened that day because of it, Willy Driscoll was there in the cockpit and he has confirmed the essential details of the story. He is one of the most respected men ever to serve in naval aviation and no one has ever given me any reason to question his integrity.
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Posts:
5
From:
Riverside,CA
Registered:
5/30/07
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(17 of 24)
Re: Randy Cunningham vs. Col. "Tomb"
May 31, 2007 12:03 AM
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Ok I found a little bit more information on our "Toon" The Name that was reported was Colonel Nguyen Toon who supposedly shot down 13 american aircraft which is 4 more kills than the Vietnamese government says their highest ace has Nguyen Van Coc (Mig-21) with a record of 9 kills (7 confermed by the US). With the Information I have the pilot "Toon" if he was an Ace was either Nguyen Van Bay or Le Hai. If not he was a foreign Pilot that has never been disclosed as a combatant.
If the Pilot was an "Ace" and if his first name was Nguyen it the only pilot he could be is Nguyen Van Bay who had 7 kills(unknown how many are confermed by US)He flew a Mig-17 from '66-'72. I have found other conflicting information about Van Bay and I believe he is still alive.
The Other Pilot Le Hai there is no information on besides the fact he is listed as an ace with 6 kills.
Other information suggest that "toon" or "tomb" was a callsign like "Duke" or "Irish" allthough I can't find any information about N.V. Air Force and if they used callsigns.
VERY GREY SUBJECT
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Edited by AAGNEW at 05/31/2007 12:05 AM
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