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(46 of 122)
May 5, 2005 1:36 AM
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Good post Jasser. Now if people will reverse this and apply the same problem to Germany in 1940 perhaps those who cavalierly talk about a German cross channel landing in England will see why it was a pipe dream
--
qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum
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(47 of 122)
May 5, 2005 5:46 AM
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You've lost me here. If you agree that air power is problematic for a 1943 cross channel attack, then how is that situation better for Southern France? The situation goes from questionable air support across the channel to basically no air support in S. France. Ninth Bomber Command was operating out of Egypt and Libya, a looong way from S. France. It was an 8+ hour round trip for B-24s to the Dragoon beaches from Italy in 1944! Medium bombers can't make the round trip from N. Africa. Where was fighter support for a '43 invasion going to be based? Carriers look like the only fighter option in '43, and not much of one. The Navy was hurting for carriers in the Pacific - Essex didn't fight until August 43. Ranger and some CVEs (Combustible, Volatile, Expendable) are in the Atlantic. How much power can they project in '43? How much defense can they provide? How long can the Navy afford to operate in a confined area in hostile waters?
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Illegitimi Non Carborundum - "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell
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(48 of 122)
Re: Southern France <Airpower>
May 5, 2005 7:32 AM
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> You've lost me here. If you agree that air power is
> problematic for a 1943 cross channel attack, then how
> is that situation better for Southern France?
Reasonable thought. Replies below.
The
> situation goes from questionable air support across
> the channel to basically no air support in S. France.
> Ninth Bomber Command was operating out of Egypt and
> d Libya, a looong way from S. France.
False starting point.
My plan is to hold in Tunisia (the axis are cut off, after all), and invade Sardinia while it is very lightly defended and it isn't expected. This could be in Spring 43, like Feb, or more likely April. Big island, but not heavily populated, nor defended.
At same time, or soon afterwards, invade Corsica.
The two of them act as solid bases to threaten the Axis from the Franco/Spanish Border all the way to Sicily - mostly with air power, which will be moved there as the engineers build up air bases on the islands. These two islands also act as logistics bases for future moves - on the assumption that we will move to S. France (or possibly N. Italy, or even an invasion of Sicily from north).
Now the Axis finds its forces in Tunisia cut off, and threats toward France and Italy DIRECTLY - so defense of Tunisia is a low priority, while even Sicily is less significant as the Axis rushes to defend against the new threats.
From this point, the allies can choose S. France (Dragoon/Anvil), N. Italy, Sicily in 1943. With the focus in the Med, of course N. France in 1943 is out of the question - that is the direct result of the choice to invade N. Africa in Nov 1942 (and failure to clear it quickly).
So the question of airpower is addressed by several aspects:
1) Libya and Egypt are backwaters, and the 9th needs to move to Algeria and Sardinia (with fighter and attack bombers to corsica, too).
2) RAF needs to follow suite (though I can see the Brits going to Sicily after clearing Tunisia (possibly before), so RAF could operate from Libya, Malta, Tunisia.
3) S. france is not nearly as heavily defended, has no prepared defenses to breach or concern oneself with, and so (at least initially), the resistance and the reaction won't be as strong.
4) Allies will make very realistic deceptions that N. France will follow in short order, in order to draw/hold forces there.
5) The Luftwaffe is not deployed to defend S. France, and though it can (and will) redeploy south, it doesn't have the infrastructure setup, and so is somewhat weaker. 6) Note, too, that Allied forces, esp. bombers, in England CAN support this invasion - they can strike all over France, hitting transportation, airfields, and with the medium/attack bombers, the German formations. They can even shuttle bomb the Germans across France (and Italy), landing in Corsica, Sardinia before returning on another mission to England.
7) The MAJOR point in my alternative plan is that an operation ala Overlord would not be possible in 1943 (or at least far more risky and thus problemmatic). This is a scaled down, yet still significant, move. That is, it is NOT comparable to Overlord, it is an alternative.
The reason it is so significant is that it cannot be ignored - Germans WILL react. Also, the terrain, while not wide open like N. France (past the bocage), is better than Italy and favors our own mobility and mechanization. And Finally, it is a DIRECT support to the main event - Overlord in 1944. Imagine the Invasion in 1944 when the allies have already engaged prime divisions in battle in S. France, and (while painful for us, too) have inflicted great harm on them. And in the end, the allies now have two major and functioning ports to use - Marseilles and Toulon provided 50% of the tonnage in Fall 1944 - imagine if those ports are in operation BEFORE overlord, and in fact a build up of supplies has occurred, as well.
Tom
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(49 of 122)
May 5, 2005 9:57 AM
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... and this is the spring of 1944.
"The flood of troops moving across the North Atlantic depended heavily on continuous shuttling by the great British controlled passenger liners - Ile de France, Nieuw Amsterdam, Aquitania, Mauritania and the Queens - and no allowance was made for possible interruption in service. With the target date now only 4 months distant, and completion of the program dependent on the monthly troop movments of 150,000 men, the loss - even serious damaging - of one of the "monsters" would be little short of disasterous." - Coakley & Leighton
The US had been so deficient in troop lift capacity that the Aquitania had been loaned to the San Francisco-Honolulu run, QE for the US to Australia run, granted that was mid-1942. TORCH had required troop convoys so heavily escorted and defended that the North Atlantic escorts/support groups had been denuded, and their convoys had suffered accordingly. Remember, plodding Liberty Ship trooper conversions don't compare, they're comparatively cost prohibitive and require especially heavy escort.
Even after the defeat of Germany, the US made plans contingent on British liners being made available to transfer tropps to the Far East.
"All divisions and air groups would be accompanied by normal compliments of supporting troops. A basic premise of the plan was that these movements would recieve priority over all others, military or civilian, during the 9 month period. on that premise, and assuming the British Queens would continue available to the United States, the planners anticipated that transport shipping would be sufficient to carry out the movements". - Coakley & Leighton
The British later made the Queens and Aquitania available to the US, but had to scale back on repatriation of Canadian and New Zealand troops, and their own contributions to the war against Japan to do so. Also at Termainal, beyond urgent requests for the Queens, the US had pressed for 7 liners, captured by the British to be made available to the US as well, for "as long as the emergency exists". Now that's not to say that the US couldn't have planned accordingly and found some substitute, say carriers as per "Magic Carpet", but the US still lacked the "operational" heavy lift troop capacity, the ability to move a whole lotta troops, in a hurry i.e. at speed, without British help.
Message was edited by Marmat at May 5, 2005 10:07 AM
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Posts:
10,383
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(50 of 122)
May 5, 2005 11:48 AM
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Mick.
I don't dispute the number's of men transported by the liner's that were pressed into service.
(German u-boat crew's called them the gray ghost didn't they?)
I worked with a man who went over on one of the Queen's, he told me many time's about the speed of the Queen, and how the escort vessel's could only watch as she sailed by.
But there were thousand's of ship's pressed into transporting men and equipment.
In the "First Report to the Secretary of Navy" by Admiral King. He state's:
"The war has been variously termed a war of production and a war of machines. Whatever else it is, so far as the United States is concerned, it is a war of logistics. The Army--of course--have presented problems nothing short of colossal, and have required the most careful and intricate planning. The profound effect of logistic problems on our strategic decisions is described elsewhere in this report, but to all who do not have to traverse them, the tremendous distances, particularly those in the Pacific, are not likely to have full significance. It is no easy matter in a global war to have the right materials in the right places at the right times in the right quantities."
He continue's:
"When war was declared, an immediate estimate of the situation with respect to material was made, as a result of which we could see that, no matter how much material was produced within the next year, it would not be enough. Therefore, with the idea of doing the first thing first, every effort was made to produce as much material as possible of all kinds, with the idea that as the war progressed our estimates could be revised to fit our needs. Stock piles of spare parts and materials needed for routine maintenance and repair of ships and aircraft were therefore established at advance bases, additional supplies being delivered under regular schedule"
I would rather take the word of the men who were faced with the situation and responded in a methodical approach that lead to a victory.
The History Re-Writer's would have you believe that they are smarter then the men who actually planned and executed a plan that proved to be the right plan.
It's easy to play "General" or God when you don't have to face the consequence's. Hitler planned a war without any regard for his nation, we didn't, we won, what's the problem?
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(51 of 122)
May 5, 2005 1:12 PM
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> > Approximately 60 of the APs were in service in
> early
> > '43. The APs were troop ships - liners were not
> the
> > only ships transporting troops.
Agreed but they wouldn't carry 40 divisions across the Atlantic in 1942/43
> And not all liners were British, either. 
Can you name me some ships of other countries that were used as troopships then. I can only think of one or two
Re the Pacific. You are now diverting into the Pacific whigh was nothing to do with what the questioner asked..
>
> Besides, your
> > statement "America never had the capacity during
> the war to move large numbers of troops by sea" is not
> > restricted to '42-'43, nor is it accurate.
OK. If my statement is inaccurate, name me some US troop carriers that were bringing US troops to Europe at any time, but specifically in 1942 and 1943 .
I quoted you the two Queens. Could I add a few more of the larger passenger ships that were used in trooping:-Mauretania: Empress of Scotland: Empress of Britain: Empress of France: Britannic: Highland Monarch: Highland Brigade:Dominion Monarch; Fanconia, Saxonia.Capetown Castle; Athlone Castle: Strling Castle; Canarvon Casdtle.Dunnottar Castle. Canton: Worcestershire:Derbyshire; Monarch of Bermuda : Queen of Bermuda: Himalaya; Orcades; Strathaird; Strathnaver Stratheden; Strathmore;Orontes; Ortranto; Rangitata; Rangitiki; Rhahine; To these I could add the intermediate liners of the British India S.N. Co. South American Saint Line . The liners of Ellermans ;Blue Star, and Alfred Holt, together with those of P& O : Orient Line and the rest of the Union Castle ships I haven't mentioned.
Obviously not all these ships were used in carrying US troops. Until you come up with some names and facts, I will stick my neck out and say that the bulk of US and Canadian troops were carried out, and back home, by British ships.
I have just read a quote( unsubstantiated) that the two Queens carred just under 2 million US troops during the war. What I find hard to understand is that Americans like yourself refuse to even acknowledge this fact. Indeed it is almost taken as an insult that we even have the audacity to remember it.
>
Message was edited by Mick3 at May 5, 2005 1:13 PM
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618
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(52 of 122)
May 5, 2005 2:27 PM
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Mick, The issue as I see it is as follows:
1. The British had an enormous capability that was effectively utilized by the Western Allies when considering the transportation of American troops to Europe.
2. Had the British not been able to utilize this asset (namely the multitude of high passenger liners) AND had the US used historical ship building plans, then it becomes clear that the US could not have transported enough troops to support a 1943 invasion of Europe.
3. But, had the US not been able to utilize the historical British capability, the US would likely have been able to convert a fair portion of their early war ship building capacity to large high speed troop transport. Of course this would have necessitated a compromise in some other theater
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428
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(53 of 122)
May 5, 2005 2:30 PM
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> Can you name me some ships of other countries that
> were used as troopships then. I can only think of
> one or two
Mick,
There were NO US troops ships to Europe in 41 but quite a few in 42
In one convoy departing NY Feb. 19th, 1942 the US 34th ID was shipped to Belfast N. Irland via:
SS Barnet
USS Fuller
Dutchess of Athol
SS Betelgeuse
SS Neveil
USAT American Legion
Also in the same convoy carrying unspecified troops were the:
USS Elliot
SS Ehresmann
SS Athena
and in the same convoy
USS Almaack carried the 467th Engineer Maintenance Company.
Another convoy dparting NYC on April 30th, 1942 shipped more elements of the 34 ID and other units included:
Aqitania
USAT Mexico
Cathat
Cristobal
Santa Elena
Santa Rosa
McAndrews
Then in another covoy from NYC on 4th July, 1942
SS Argentina - carried the 56th Signal Battlion and some 8th Air Force advanced units and 8,000 unspecified troops
July 16th, 1942 the SS Louis A Paster departed NYC alon carrying personell of the 12th Bombardment group.
August 6th, 1942 the USS West Pont (AP23)sailed from NYC carrying 7,441 passengers, unspecified.
August 6th, 1942 USS Uruguay departed NYC with the 301st bombgroup on board.
Here is the site from which I got this info:
http://troopships.pier90.org/
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(55 of 122)
May 6, 2005 11:50 AM
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Well done Jasser. You found one 10.000 tonner( did it come complete with oars?)![]:)](http://boards.history.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif)
If you are still looking.Can I point you in the direction of the 'Constitution' and the 'Indepedence',both of the American Export Lines. They were 23.000 ton ships, ideal for trooping. I suspect if used as such it would have been in the Pacific.
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(56 of 122)
May 6, 2005 12:41 PM
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Mekoza. I find your assessment a fair one which I have no quarrel with.
Britain was not, and never has been a military power, the Empire as such, was founded and sustained by trade. In saying that, I am not blind to the fact that in keeping that Empire and influence, what the Americans called 'gun-boat diplomacy' was often the order of the day.
The point to all this is that we built up a vast Navy and an even bigger merchant service. We lost an astronomical number of ships both RN and merchant ships in the Battle of the Atlanticand in the Med. For a time it was a very close run thing. Had it been lost, there would have been no invasion in 1944 (let alone the query of 1943 on this thread.)
It was here at this point that the US came into its own. With the Canadian yards,and the almost production line methods of mass shipbuilding of Liberty Ships and Empire ships. Together, they replaced the lost tonnage, and made ferrying the massive amount of material needed to sustain a land invasion of Europe possible. British yards concentrated on ship repair and the building of small escorts and corvettes that in the end kept the u-boats under.
Indeed I belive the Bethlehem Yard in L.A. built and launched a complete Liberty Ship in 24 hours. It will never be done again.
It was a joint effort. Unlike the land war that eventually took place,with all the bickering of egotistical generals whose egos exceeded their competence. The war at sea was a model that alas was never repeated.
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(57 of 122)
May 6, 2005 12:51 PM
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Sorry Mick, Had a Dr. appointment and couldn't finish my search.
Here is a list of US Troop Transport and foreign ship's used by Allied's
http://www.usmm.org/troopships.html
The web site for the USMM:
http://www.usmm.org/
Here is a new's article from the NY Time's June 20 1944. US Ship's Deliver "Tommies" on Beach.
http://www.usmm.org/shipsdeliver.html
I think you and I a may be talking about two separate mission's. Note that I agreed with you that the Queen's and other liner's were used as troop transport's. I also stated that there were many ship's delivering everything else including troop's and supplies during the war.
The reference to the Pacific was in Admiral King report that I quoted. We have been talking about the transport of men to the ETO. But the men who were allocating resource's were dealing with both the PTO and the ETO.
I thought it would be a good idea to hear what they had to say.
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(59 of 122)
May 6, 2005 9:14 PM
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Rob,
Thanks Rob, the AP23 USS West Point was a busy ship! The effort and sacrifice's made by the crew's of the troop ship's, freighters, tanker's and support vessels seldom get much attention. Likewise the Merchant Marine's from Canadian, Britain and the US get the same treatment.
But what if they had failed in their mission?
Would we be debating the timing of the Allied Invasion of Europe?
What if Germany had built more U-Boat's and fewer Battle Ship's and Cruiser's?
And after their experience in WWI, why didn't they build more U-Boat's?
U-boats sank 2640 Allied ship's, 1160 of them in 1942 alone.
The Battle of the North Atlantic according to Churchill was the most important battle of WWII, and I have no reason to second guess him.
Message was edited by jasser at May 7, 2005 8:01 AM
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889
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(60 of 122)
Troopships used by the US
May 9, 2005 6:21 AM
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Per the US Navy history, the Navy armed 6,236 merchant ships. Of these, 5,114 were US flagged or US owned. Obviously, many were cargo rather than troopships, but a listing of some of the troopships used by the US follows.
>>What I find hard to understand is that Americans like yourself refuse to even acknowledge this fact. Indeed it is almost taken as an insult that we even have the audacity to remember it.
I don't believe than anyone in this thread has denied that British ships were used transporting large numbers of US troops. No insult intended. However, when you make statements such as "America never had the capacity during the war to move large numbers of troops by sea", you seem to refuse to acknowledge that US ships also moved large numbers of US troops. As an aside, my father went overseas aboard USS General W.A. Mann (US) and returned aboard Athos II (France).
Some troopships used by US:
A. P. HILL
ABRAHAM LINCOLN
ACADIA (HOSP.)
ACADIA (TROOPSHIP)
ACONCAGUA
ADABELLE LYKES
ADMIRAL C. F. HUGHES
ADMIRAL E. W. EBERLE
ADMIRAL H. T. MAYO
ADMIRAL HUGH RODMAN
ADMIRAL R. E. COONTZ
ADMIRAL W. L. CAPPS
ADMIRAL W. S. BENSON
ADMIRAL W. S. SIMS
AFOUNDRIA
AGWILEON
AGWIPRINCE
AIKEN VICTORY
ALASKA
ALCEE FORTIER
ALCOA PATRIOT
ALCOA POLARIS
ALEDA E. LUTZ
ALEUTIAN
ALEXANDER G. BELL
ALEXANDER LILLINGTON
ALFRED MOORE
ALGONQUIN (HOSP.)
ALGONQUIN (TROOPSHIP)
ALHAMBRA VICTORY
ALTOONA VICTORY
AMBROSE E. BURNSIDE
AMHERST VICTORY
AMERICAN LEGION
ANCON
ANDES
ANDREW FURUSETH
ANDREW HAMILTON
ANNE ARUNDEL
ANDREW MOORE
ANTIOCH VICTORY
AQUITANIA
ARAWA
ARCHBISHOP LAMY
ARGENTINA
ARLINGTON
ARROW
ARTHUR C. ELY
ASA GRAY
ATHLONE CASTLE
ATHOS II
AZALEA CITY
BARANOF
BARDSTOWN VICTORY
BELLE ISLE
BENJAMIN CONTEE
BENJAMIN GOODHUE
BENJAMIN HUNTINGTON
BENJAMIN R. MILAM
BERNARD CARTER
BETTY ZANE
BIENVILLE
BLANCHE F. SIGMAN (HOSP.)
BLENHEIM
BLOEMFONTEIN
BLUE ISLAND VICTORY
BLUE RIDGE VICTORY
BOOKER T. WASHINGTON
BORINQUEN
BOSCHFONTEIN
BRANDON VICTORY
BRASTAGI
BRAZIL
BRET HARTE
BRIDGEPORT
BRIG. GEN. ALFRED J. LYON
BRIG. GEN. ASA N. DUNCAN
BRIG. GEN. CLINTON W. RUSSELL
BRITANNIC
BUTTON GWINNETT
C. C. N. Y. VICTORY
CALEB STRONG
CALVIN COOLIDGE
CAPE BON
CAPE CANSO
CAPE CLEARE
CAPE COD
CAPE DOUGLAS
CAPE FLATTERY
CAPE HENLOPEN
CAPE JOHNSON
CAPE MEARES
CAPE MENDOCINO
CAPE NEDDICK
CAPE NEWENHAM
CAPE PERPETUA
CAPE SAN JUAN
CAPE VICTORY
CAPETOWN CASTLE
CARL SHURZ
CARLOS CARRILLO
CARNARVON CASTLE
CEFALU
CENTRAL FALLS VICTORY
CHANUTE VICTORY
CHAPEL HILL VICTORY
CHARLES A. STAFFORD
CHARLES B. AYCOCK
CHARLES GOODYEAR
CHARLES LUMMIS
CHARLES W. WOOSTER
CHATEAU THIERRY (HOSP.)
CHATEAU THIERRY (TROOPSHIP)
CHIRIKOF
CHRISTOPHER GREENUP
CLARK MILLS
CLAYMONT VICTORY
CLEVEDON
COALDALE VICTORY
COAMO
CODY VICTORY
COLBY VICTORY
COLIN P. KELLY. JR.
COLOMBIE
COLO. SPGS. VICTORY
COLUMBIA
COMET (LARGE)
COMET (SMALL)
CONRAD WEISER
CONTESSA
COPIAPO
CORNELIUS GILLIAM
CORNELIUS HARTNETT
COSTA RICA VICTORY
CRANSTON VICTORY
CRISTOBAL
CUBA
CUSHMAN K. DAVIS
CYRUS W. FIELD
DANIEL E. GARRETT
DANIEL H. HILL
DANIEL H. LOWNSDALE
DANIEL HUGER
DASHING WAVE
DAVID C. SHANKS
DAVID G. FARRAGUT
DAVID W. BRANCH
DAY STAR
DELAROF
DENALI
DOGWOOD
DOMINICAN VICTORY
DOMINION MONARCH
DORCHESTER
DOROTHEA L. DIX
DUCHESS OF BEDFORD
DULUTH
EDMUND B. ALEXANDER
EDWARD BATES
EDWARD RICHARDSON
EDWARD RUTLEDGE
ELBRIDGE GERRY
ELEAZAR WHEELOCK
ELGIN VICTORY
ELI D. HOYLE
ELIHU YALE
ELIZABETH C. STANTON
EMMA WILLARD
EMILY H. M. WEDER
EMPRESS OF AUSTRALIA
EMPRESS OF SCOTLAND
ERNEST HINDS (HOSP.)
ERNEST HINDS (TROOPSHIP)
ERNESTINE KORANDA
ERNIE PYLE
ESEK HOPKINS
ESPERANCE BAY
ETHAN ALLEN
ETOLIN
EUFAULA VICTORY
EUGENE HALE
EVANGELINE
EXCELLER
EXCELSIOR
EXCHANGE
EXCHEQUER
EXIRIA
EXPLORER
EXTAVIA
EZRA CORNELL
F. A. C. MUHLENBERG
F. J. LUCKENBACH
F. MARION CRAWFORD
FAIRFAX
FAIRISLE
FAIRLAND
FAIRMONT VICTORY
FAYETTEVILLE VICTORY
FELIPE DE NEVE
FELIX GRUNDY
FITZHUGH LEE
FLORENCE NIGHTINGALE
FLORIDA
FRANCES Y. SLANGER
FRANCIS A. WALKER
FRANCIS L. LEE
FRANCIS MARION
FRANCONIA
FRED C. AINSWORTH
FREDERICK C. JOHNSON
FREDERICK FUNSTON
FREDERICK LYKES
FREDERICK VICTORY
FROSTBURG VICTOY
GATUN
GENERAL A. E. ANDERSON
GENERAL A. W. BREWSTER
GENERAL A. W. GREELY
GENERAL C. C. BALLOU
GENERAL C. G. MORTON
GENERAL C. H. MUIR
GENERAL D. E. AULTMAN
GENERAL E. T. COLLINS
GENERAL G. M. RANDALL
GENERAL G. O. SQUIER
GENERAL H. B. FREEMAN
GENERAL H. F. HODGES
GENERAL H. L. SCOTT
GENERAL H. W. BUTNER
GENERAL HARRY TAYLOR
GENERAL J. C. BRECKINRIDGE
GENERAL J. H. McRAE
GENERAL J. R. BROOKE
GENERAL JOHN POPE
GENERAL LeROY ELTINGE
GENERAL M. B. STEWART
GENERAL M. C. MEIGS
GENERAL M. L. HERSEY
GENERAL M. M. PATRICK
GENERAL O. H. ERNST
GENERAL OMAR BUNDY
GENERAL R. E. CALLAN
GENERAL R. L. HOWZE
GENERAL R. M. BLATCHFORD
GENERAL S. D. STURGIS
GENERAL STUART HEINTZELMAN
GENERAL T. H. BLISS
GENERAL W. A. MANN
GENERAL W. C. GORGAS
GENERAL W. C. LANGFITT
GENERAL W. F. HASE
GENERAL W. G. HAAN
GENERAL W. H. GORDON
GENERAL W. M. BLACK
GENERAL W. P. RICHARDSON
GENERAL WILLIAM MITCHELL
GENERAL WILIAM WEIGEL
GEORGE B. McCLELLAN
GEORGE BANCROFT
GEORGE DAVIS
GEORGE F. ELLIOTT
GEORGE FLAVEL
GEORGE G. MEADE
GEORGE H. DERN
GEORGE H. THOMAS
GEORGE HANDLEY
GEORGE LEONARD
GEORGE M. BIBB
GEORGE S. SIMONDS
GEORGE SHIRAS
GEORGE W. CAMPBELL
GEORGE W. GOETHALS
GEORGE W. JULIAN
GEORGE W. McCRARY
GEORGE W. WOODWARD
GEORGE WASHINGTON (LARGE)
GEORGE WASHINGTON (SMALL)
GEORGE WASHINGTON CARVER
GEORGETOWN VICTORY
GIDEON WELLS
GLENN G. GRISWOLD
GOLDEN CITY
GOUCHER VICTORY
GRENVILLE M. DODGE
GUSTAVUS VICTORY
HAGERSTOWN VICTORY
HALEAKALA
HAMPDEN-SYDNEY VICTORY
HANNIS TAYLOR
HARRY F. RETHERS
HAVERFORD VICTORY
HAWAIIAN SHIPPER
HAYM SALOMON
HELEN HUNT JACKSON
HENRY BALDWIN
HENRY BERGH
HENRY DEARBORN
HENRY FAILING
HENRY GIBBINS
HENRY GROVES CONNOR
HENRY MIDDLETON
HENRY R. MALLORY
HENRY W. BEECHER
HENRY W. HURLEY
HENRY W. LONGFELLOW
HERALD OF THE MORNING
HERMITAGE
HIGHLAND BRIGADE
HIGHLAND CHIEFTAIN
HIGHLAND MONARCH
HILARY A. HERBERT
HOOD VICTORY
HORACE BINNEY
HOWARD A. KELLY
HOWARD VICTORY
HOWELL LYKES
HUGH L. SCOTT
HUNTER LIGGETT
ILE DE FRANCE
IMPERIAL
INDIA VICTORY
IRVIN MacDOWELL
ISAAC COLES
ISAAC SHARPLESS
ISLAND MAIL
J. E. GORMAN
J. H. KINKAID
J. M. DAVIS
J. W. McANDREW
JAMES H. McCLINTOCK
JAMES McCOSH
JAMES B. FRANCIS
JAMES B. HOUSTON
JAMES B. RICHARDSON
JAMES BARBOUR
JAMES FORD RHODES
JAMES G. BLAINE
JAMES H. McCLINTOcK
JAMES HOBAN
JAMES IREDELL
JAMES J. HILL
JAMES JACKSON
JAMES McCOSH
JAMES MONROE
JAMES MOORE
JAMES O'HARA
JAMES PARKER
JAMES RUSSELL LOWELL
JAMES TURNER
JAMES W. FANNIN
JAMES W. MARSHALL
JAMES W. RILEY
JAMES W. NESMITH
JANE ADDAMS
JAPARA
JARRETT M. HUDDLESTON (HOSP.)
JARRETT M. HUDDLESTON (TROOPSHIP)
JEAN LAFITTE
JOAQUIN MILLER
JOE C. SPECKER
JOEL CHANDLER HARRIS
JOHN B. FLOYD
JOHN B. HOOD
JOHN BANVARD
JOHN BLAIR
JOHN C. AINSWORTH
JOHN C. BRECKENRIDGE
JOHN CLARKE
JOHN CROPPER
JOHN DICKINSON
JOHN E. SCHMELTZER
JOHN ERICSSON
JOHN FISKE
JOHN HARVARD
JOHN HARVEY
JOHN HATHORN
JOHN HOWLAND
JOHN J. CRITTENDEN
JOHN J. MEANY
JOHN JAY
JOHN L. CLEM (HOSP.)
JOHN L. CLEM (TROOPSHIP)
JOHN L. MOTLEY
JOHN LAND
JOHN LAWSON
JOHN LYKES
JOHN M. MOREHEAD
JOHN MILLEDGE
JOHN MURRAY FORBES
JOHN P. MITCHELL
JOHN S. PILLSBURY
JOHN SERGEANT
JOHN STEVENS
JOHN SULLIVAN
JOHN TRUMBULL
JOHN W. BROWN
JOHN W. WEEKS
JOHN WALKER
JOHNS HOPKINS
JONATHAN EDWARDS
JONATHAN ELMER
JONATHAN GROUT
JONATHAN TRUMBULL
JONATHAN WORTH
JOSE NAVARRO
JOSEPH ALSTON
JOSEPH GALE
JOSEPH H. HOLLISTER
JOSEPH H. NICHOLSON
JOSEPH HEWES
JOSEPH HOOKER
JOSEPH LEIDY
JOSEPH N. TEAL
JOSEPH T. DICKMAN
JOSEPH T. ROBINSON
JOSEPH WARREN
JOSHUA HENDY
JOSHUA SENEY
JOSIAH BARTLETT
JOSIAH D. WHITNEY
JUNIOR N. VAN NOY
JUSTIN S. MORRILL
KEMP P. BATTLE
KING S. WOOLSEY
KINGS POINT VICTORY
KINGSTON VICTORY
KLIPFONTEIN
KOKOMO VICTORY
KOTA AGOENG
KOTA BAROE
KOTA INTEN
LACONIA VICTORY
LA CROSSE VICTORY
LA GRANDE VICTORY
LAKE CHARLES VICTORY
LAMBERT CADWALADER
LARGS BAY
LARKSPUR
LA SALLE
LEHIGH VICTORY
LEJEUNE
LELAND STANFORD
LEONARD WOOD
LEVI WOODBURY
LEW WALLACE
LEWISTON VICTORY
LINCOLN STEFFENS
LINCOLN VICTORY
LINDLEY M. GARRISON
LOCK KNOT
LOUIS A. MILNE
LOUIS McLANE
LOUISA M. ALCOTT
LUCRETIA MOTT
LURLINE
LUTHER MARTIN
LYMAN ABBOTT
LYON
M. I. T. VICTORY
M. M. GUHIN
MADAWASKA VICTORY
MADISON
MADISON J. MANCHESTER
MAHANOY CITY VICTORY
MAJ. GEN. H. A. DARGUE
MAJ. GFN. ROBERT OLDS
MAJ. GEN. W. R. WEAVER
MARIGOLD
MARINE ADDER
MARINE ANGEL
MARINE CARDINAL
MARINE CARP
MARINE DEVIL
MARINE DRAGON
MARINE EAGLE
MARINE FALCON
MARINE FLASHER
MARINE FOX
MARINE JUMPER
MARINE LYNX
MARINE MARLIN
MARINE PANTHER
MARINE PERCH
MARINE PHOENIX
MARINE RAVEN
MARINE ROBIN
MARINE SERPENT
MARINE SHARK
MARINE SWALLOW
MARINE TIGER
MARINE WOLF
MARION McK. BOVARD
MARIPOSA
MARITIME VICTORY
MARSHALL ELLIOTT
MARSHALL VICTORY
MARVIN L. THOMAS
MARYMAR
MARYVlLLE VICTORY
MATAROA
MATSONIA
MATTHEW MAURY
MAUl
MAURETANIA
MAYO BROTHERS
MEDINA VICTORY
METEOR
MEXICAN
MEXICO
MEXICO VICTORY
MILFORD VICTORY
MIRABEAU B. LAMAR
MONTCLAIR VICTORY
MONTEREY (LARGE)
MONTEREY (SMALL)
MONTICELLO
MORETON BAY
MORMACDOVE
MORMACHAWK
MORMACMOON
MORMACPORT
MORMACSEA
MORMACWREN
MOSES AUSTIN
MOUNT VERNON
MUHLENBERG VICTORY
N. Y. U. VICTORY
NATHANIEL J. WYETH
NATHANIEL SCUDDER
NEW BERN VICTORY
NEWTON D. BAKER
NEVADAN (Two Listings)
NICHOLAS GILMAN
NIEUW AMSTERDAM
NOAH WEBSTER
NOORDAM
NORTH COAST
NORWAY VICTORY
OCEAN MAlL
OCTORARA
ONEIDA VICTORY
ORDUNA
ORION
ORIZABA
OTSEGO
PACHAUG VICTORY
PAINE WINGATE
PASTEUR
PAUL HAMILTON
PENNANT
PERIDA
PETER J. McGUIRE
PETER MINUIT
PETER SILVESTER
PIERRE L'ENFANT
PIERRE SOUL
PITTSTON VICTORY
POELAU LAUT
POMONA VICTORY
PONCE DE LEON
PONTOTOC VICTORY
PRESIDENT BUCHANAN
PRESIDENT COOLIDGE
PRESIDENT FILLMORE
PRESIDENT GARFIELD
PRESIDENT GRANT
PRESIDENT JOHNSON
PRESIDENT MONROE
PRESIDENT POLK
PRESIDENT TAYLOR
PRESIDENT TYLER
PUEBLA
QUEEN ELIZABETH
QUEEN MARY
QUEEN OF BERMUDA
RANGITATA
RANGITIKI
REBECCA LUKENS
RENSSELAER VICTORY
REPUBLIC (HOSP.)
REPUBLIC (TROOPSHIP)
REVERDY JOHNSON
RICHARD BASSETT
RICHARD J. GATLING
RICHARD MARSH HOE
RICHARD O'BRIEN
RICHARD OLNEY
RICHARD R. ARNOLD
RICHARD RUSH
ROANOKE
ROBERT DALE OWEN
ROBERT F. STOCKTON
ROBERT H. HARRISON
ROBERT M. EMERY
ROBERT M. T. HUNTER
ROBERT TREAT PAINE
ROBERT W. BINGHAM
ROBIN DONCASTER
ROBIN SHERWOOD
ROBIN WENTLEY
ROCHAMBEAU
ROCK HILL VICTORY
ROLLINS VICTORY
ROSEVILLE
ROUND SPLICE
RUSHVILLE VICTORY
ST. ALBANS VICTORY
ST. MIHIEL (HOSP.)
ST. MIHIEL (TROOPSHIP)
ST. OLAF (HOSP.)
ST. OLAF (TROOPSHIP)
SACAJAWEA
SAMARIA
SAMUEL ADAMS
SAMUEL ASHE
SAMUEL GRIFFIN
SAMUEL HUNTINGTON
SAMUEL H. WALKER
SAMUEL J. TILDEN
SAMUEL JOHNSON
SAMUEL LIVERMORE
SANTA BARBARA
SANTA CECILIA
SANTA CLARA
SANTA CRUZ
SANTA ELENA
SANTA ISABEL
SANTA LUCIA
SANTA MARIA
SANTA MONICA
SANTA PAULA
SANTA ROSA
SANTIAGO IGLESIAS
SATURNIA
SCYTHIA
SEA BARB
SEA BASS
SEA CAT
SEA CORPORAL
SEA DEVIL
SEA FIDDLER
SEA FLASHER
SEA FLIER
SEA MARLIN
SEA OWL
SEA PARTRIDGE
SEA PERCH
SEA PIKE
SEA PORPOISE
SEA QUAIL
SEA RAY
SEA ROBIN
SEA RUNNER
SEA SCAMP
SEA SNIPE
SEA STAR
SEA STURGEON
SEA TIGER
SEA WITCH
SEDALIA VICTORY
SEMINOLE (HOSP.)
SEMINOLE (TROOPSHIP)
SHAMROCK
SHAWNEE
SHEEPSHEAD BAY VICTORY
SIBONEY
SLOTERDIJK
SMITH THOMPSON
SMITH VICTORY
SOMMELSDIJK
SOLOMON JUNEAU
SPANISH BOWLINE
SPINDLE BYE
STAMFORD VICTORY
STARLIGHT
STATE OF MARYLAND
STATE OF VIRGINIA
STEPHEN A. DOUGLAS
STETSON VICTORY
STEVENS VICTORY
STIRLING CASTLE
STORM KING
SUSAN B. ANTHONY
SUSAN V. LUCKENBACH
TABINTA
TABITHA BROWN
TAMAROA
TAOS VICTORY
TARLETON BROWN
TASKER H. BLISS
TEXARKANA VICTORY
THADDEUS KOSCIUSZKO
THEODORIC BLAND
THISTLE (HOSP.)
THISTLE (TROOPSHIP)
THOMAS ROBERTSON
THOMAS CRESAP
THOMAS F. FARRELL, JR.
THOMAS H. BARRY
THOMAS HART BENTON
THOMAS JOHNSON
THOMAS LeVALLEY
THOMAS NELSON PAGE
THOMAS R. MARSHALL
THOMAS SUMTER
THOMAS W. BICKETT
THOMAS W. HYDE
THURSTON
TIMOTHY DWIGHT
TJINEGARA
TJISADANE
TORRENS
TRISTRAM DALTON
TUFTS VICTORY
TUSCULUM VICTORY
TYPHOON
U. S. GRANT
UNITED STATES VICTORY
URUGUAY
USSR VICTORY
VASSAR VICTORY
VIRGINIAN
VULCANIA
W. J. CONNERS
WAKEFIELD
WALTER E. RANGER
WALTER FORWARD
WALTER REED
WAR HAWK
WARD HUNT
WASHINGTON
WATERBURY VICTORY
WAYCROSS VICTORY
WEBSTER VICTORY
WELTEVREDEN
WEST POINT
WESTBROOK VICTORY
WESTERLY VICTORY
WESTMINISTER VICTORY
WHARTON
WHEATON VICTORY
WILLARD A. HOLBROOK
WILLIAM & MARY VICTORY
WILLIAM A. GRAHAM
WILLIAM A. RICHARDSON
WILLIAM B. GILES
WILLIAM B. TRAVIS
WILLIAM BLOUNT
WILLIAM CUSHING
WILLIAM D. MOSELY
WILLIAM D. PENDER
WH.LIAM F. CODY
WILLIAM F. FITCH
WILLIAM FEW
WILLIAM FLOYD
WILLIAM H. JACKSON
WILLIAM J. PALMER
WILLIAM L. SMITH
WILLIAM L. THOMPSON
WILLIAM M. EVARTS
WILLIAM P. MULHOLLAND
WILLIAM RAWLE
WILLIAM S. HALSTEAD
WILLIAM S. ROSECRANS
WILLIAM S. YOUNG
WILLIAM T. BARRY
WILLIAMS VICTORY
WILSON VICTORY
WINCHESTER VICTORY
WINGED ARROW
WISTERIA
WOODBRIDGE VICTORY
WOOSTER VICTORY
YARMOUTH
YOUNG AMERICA
YUKON
ZANESVILLE VICTORY
ZEBULON B. VANCE
ZEBULON PIKE
ZOELLA LYKES
ZONA GALE
--
Illegitimi Non Carborundum - "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell
Message was edited by mcoffee at May 9, 2005 6:52 AM
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