Dear History members: In February, 2010, History boards will begin the process of upgrading our community message board software. We are moving to a new community software, KickApps, that will provide greater functionality and ease of use. This transition will take place during the last part of February; the last day that the current boards will be available to you will be Feb. 28, 2010. We realize that many of you have posted great content over the years and might want to save your posts. Please take this time to go back through the boards and save what you want to keep on your own computer. These boards will no longer be accessible after February 28, 2010. If you would like to ask a question about the new boards, click here: http://boards.history.com/forum/Message-Boards-User/108 There will be more details to come as we roll out the new community software. Thank you for your continued patronage. We'll see you on the new, improved boards! Rebecca Cooper AETN Community Manager
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1,245
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(16 of 48)
did you just make that up?
Feb 4, 2003 7:58 AM
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His son (and incidentally his grandson as well) swears it was true, considering they had many discussions about it afterwards...
regards
Jan
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Etiennel
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(17 of 48)
Feb 4, 2003 8:51 AM
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In the 1960's,Peiper hired out selling Porsches and VWs.Labeled a War Criminal,he was unable to hold onto employment and moved to Traves,France with his wife & children.Traves is approx.100km from both the Swiss and German borders.They lived a quiet life until partisans complained about him being given sanctuary in France. On Bastille Day in 1976 his house was "fire bombed" and burnt down. He went down fighting with a revolver and a .22 rifle. No one was ever prosecuted.
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(18 of 48)
Feb 4, 2003 8:57 AM
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what exactly was "glossed over"? Or is it impossible to free of war crimes on your record, and at the same time be a tank and regimental commander of the 1st SS Leibstandarte Panzer Division? I've heard alot about the shelling of a Italian town in 1943, but this sounds alot like the post-war "do as I say, not as I do" rubbish that it no doubt is.
If a military unit takes fire from un-uniformed partisans and soldiers wearing their old uniforms (from before their decision to switch sides), then I believe that unit is entitled to defend itself. Its regrettable that civilians died, but no British, American, and certianly no Soviet officer would have acted any different in that same position. An Italian officer may have surrendered though...
regards
Jan
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Posts:
1,309
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(19 of 48)
Feb 4, 2003 9:05 AM
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"Truly a dark period in American "justice". This example makes one think of Soviet Russia."
Your sense of mathematics is weird beyond calculation!
One instance (if it ever happened) is equated with Soviet Russia, Since you didn't specify a period we can assume you mean the entire history of the Soviet Union? Or just Stalin's reign? So one death at American hand...oh, excuse me...one mistreated war criminal (he died decades later by non-American hands) equals the Gulag, the Cheka, the NVD, the NKVD and who ever else did "wet work" beyond the Iron Curtain.
That must justify Crystal Night.
----
The CPF had a basic view of justice right out of the Old Testiment. But since no one was prosecuted, how are you sure it was the CPF?
----
Way was he living in France in the first place? He might be alive today if he followed ODESSA to South America? Was he atoning for something by facing guilt every day by living in a country that had been occupied and where he had been charged with war crimes? Or was it arrogance that rubbed raw Gallic sensitivity?
In the 60's, senior police officers in France had experienced German rationales.
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(20 of 48)
relax man, you'll live longer
Feb 4, 2003 9:39 AM
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My analogy is quite clear, the Soviet Union was infamous for "show trials" were the "verdict" was clear from the beginning. It seems to me, based on the primitive and illegal methods used in trying to gain a confession, that this instance, the US run court was following the Soviet example...
the rest of your rant is mildly amusing actually...
I could answer the latter part of your post with factual responses but why should I bother right?
regards
Jan
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Posts:
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(21 of 48)
Feb 4, 2003 10:28 AM
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My analogy is quite clear,
--I reacted to the words. ESP is hard on a PC.
the Soviet Union was infamous for "show trials" were the "verdict" was clear from the beginning.
--This was one case. And a case where the accused was reasonably definable as guilty. He was not some innocent ratted-out by a jealous neighbor.
It seems to me, based on the primitive and illegal methods used in trying to gain a confession, that this instance, the US run court was following the Soviet example...
--I’ll reluctantly grant a provisional maybe. But what court/prosecution system has cleaner hands?
the rest of your rant is mildly amusing actually...
--don’t kiss up now. I asked some serious questions. I did it without attacking you. And note: you have not offered offense either.
Rant? Active disagreement isn’t something of biblical proportions.
I could answer the latter part of your post with factual responses but why should I bother right?
--I could offer several reasons:
1. Bored
2. Tired.
3. lack of interest
4. Answers unavailable
5. answers don’t support previously stated opinions
6. something good is on THC
Thanks for the concern about my health. Button up, it’s still winter young man.
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Posts:
7,267
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10/3/99
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(22 of 48)
Feb 4, 2003 11:05 AM
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is in the way the military tribunal handled his case. Along with others, they botched it legally. Many of the others had confessed, but it was disallowed. Of the 80 plus sentenced, almost 3/4 were freed when the cases were reviewed. Most of the ones left were appealed and overturned. Peiper himself spent 8 to 10 years in prison. His and a couple of other sentences were reduced by higher courts.
I don't buy the torture story, He would have been released immediatly if any of it had happened. You must have had the Gestapo stuck in your mind, or his son and grandson had it stuck in theirs. The US had its faults, but copying the Gestapo or the nazis in general was not one of them.
Granted, US businessmen helped make the regime and themselves a lot of money until 1943. President Bush II grandfather for one; Prescott. None of these posts are made up.
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2,040
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(23 of 48)
Feb 4, 2003 5:52 PM
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If you want more info on Pieper, "The Devil's Adjutant: Jochen Peiper, Panzer Leader" by Michael Reynolds
Best Regards,
T71Herb
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(24 of 48)
I have it, but haven't read it yet...
Feb 5, 2003 2:18 AM
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Truthfully, its my dad's.
I like Micheal Reynolds, his book Clash of Steel was good. A little dry a times, but an interesting read...
regards
Jan
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(25 of 48)
Feb 5, 2003 2:48 AM
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I never said the US justice system is equal to the Soviet one. I just said "in this case", which I still stand behind.
There is no better system. I worked as paralegal in defense of murderer for a summer. The work was depressing, and soul searching, and left me questioning the system, but bottom line, there is no better one out there...
So since you do want to know some facts concerning your questions, (accept my apology in thinking you really weren't interested)
Jochen Peiper was in France, because he actually loved France. He spoke fluent French. He worked as a translator, and was content. Also, he never committed any "crimes" against the French, and therefore did not see any reason for French people to hate him. If you're familiar with modern French history, you'll know of the extreme internal divisions and questioning that arose in France(in their society) in 1946 and after as result of their surrender, and the actions of Vichy France. Alot of Frenchmen developed a form of "self-hate" (although they'd never admit it to a foreigner) This questioning and internal hatred resulted in many trials of Vichy beauracrats who may have not been the criminals they were painted to be (some were of course), and the shunning of hapless military men who were deemed not to resisted enough (again, some did not resist enough). In addition, the younger generation was extremely militant, in a way trying to make up for their parents generation supposed "weakness". Add the fact that Peiper's killers warned him that they were communist sympathizers (the hammer and sickle on their death threat), and were going to get him for his fighting in Russia, and you have some serious ideological radicals, who were projecting strength over their own country's past "weakness" to the point of being at least slightly irrational (at least this in now my opinion and not so much fact) Regardless, Peiper refused to be driven from his home and his new peaceful life, and I'm sure the fact that it was communist sympathizers that were doing this to him got his blood at little high, and he then got a gun to defend himself and sent his family to friends in Germany.
His son states that Peiper could have easily left the burning house. He went in to "get furniture and personal things" and then never came out. His son is convinced he decided to die in his house because he was tired of running and answering for "crimes" that he didn't see himself guilty of. Basically that he was old, thought about the death of so many comrades of his, and and got "tired of life". His son has also quoted him as saying "Certainly our unit has killed civilians in war. But it was always an accident. If a innocent person is in a building with soldiers, and the building gets destroyed, what can you do?" He also explained to me how the Allied propaganda turned his division's nickname "The Fire Brigade" (from always being used in an emergency, strategically speaking) into the "Blow Torch Brigade", which was falsely accused of burning villages and killing civilians for non-military reasons. Interestingly, this same propaganda would later be mirrored by left wing radicals against US troops in Vietnam...
Also, he was forced out of a job with Porsche because of left wing accusations that Porsche shouldn't have a Nazi working for them. Germany was certainly of joining the witchunt to prove to Nato was "good allies" they could be.
regards
Jan
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Posts:
1,309
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(26 of 48)
Feb 5, 2003 6:14 AM
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I never said the US justice system is equal to the Soviet one. I just said "in this case", which I still stand behind.
--Clarification noted.
Jochen Peiper was in France,
--Alsace?
Also, he never committed any "crimes" against the French
--If he committed a crime in France, he would be subject to French justice. Even if he didn’t consider it a crime or he was in uniform.
and therefore did not see any reason for French people to hate him.
--Not a clear quid pro quo. The French make their own logic.
Frenchmen developed a form of "self-hate"
--Not new. The have a more rabid history of anti-Semitism than Germany ever had. C.F. a recent film called Le Hain (sp?) “The Hate.” And the curiously predictable depictation of the character of the Jew, the Arab and the French mam. Sounds like a joke. It was anything but.
Add the fact that Peiper's killers warned him that they were communist sympathizers (the hammer and sickle on their death threat), and were going to get him for his fighting in Russia,
--60’s France saw the highwater mark of Communism. The Algerian war, the crushing ignomy of yet another defeat in Chochin China, the OAS attempted coup, while Brezhnev ascended to the throne in Moscow (the period of greatest strength in the history of the USSR, C.F. Rome under Trajan). Then it all began to wane.
The French Communists were in a beserk state. They also had a minor shooting war with veterans (now aging) of non-communist partisan groups during the war.
and you have some serious ideological radicals, who were projecting strength over their own country's past "weakness" to the point of being at least slightly irrational (at least this in now my opinion and not so much fact)
--WTF. Makes as much sense as any other theory. I don’t give radical elements that much credit for far-sightedness or planning. And radical group, from the Bolsheviks to Shinning Path to Moonies can cause disruption. It’s always easier to hurt than it is to heal.
he was tired of running and answering for "crimes" that he didn't see himself guilty of.
--Accepted in theory. But clearly his presence was a flashpoint. He in a passive way, made himself available for murder.
Basically that he was old, thought about the death of so many comrades of his, and and got "tired of life".
--Suicide by communists?
His son has also quoted him as saying "Certainly our unit has killed civilians in war. But it was always an accident. If a innocent person is in a building with soldiers, and the building gets destroyed, what can you do?"
--Sorry. But that’s a cop out, even if true. And certainly I admit said many times, in many languages.
He also explained to me
--Personally?
Interestingly, this same propaganda would later be mirrored by left wing radicals against US troops in Vietnam...
--One of the great mistakes the US made in Vietnam was in antagonizing and radicalizing the press. Not that I’m a fan of ambush reporting and mike in the face of grieving widows explained by the public-has-a-right-to-know. They don’t. And reporters are genetically linked to jackals and hyenas in evolution. (Where did that come from?)
Also, he was forced out of a job with Porsche
--Former manufacturer of Tiger Tanks, now elite car division of Volkswagen and dependent on sales in the West for their profit stream.
prove to Nato was "good allies" they could be.
--With the echo of the airlift still resonant, the wall rising, the Vopos harboring ex-SS, West Germany had a lot to prove. A lot to atone for. And a lot to be grateful for (as in Russia occupying only half the country). An individual might not think the parts that touch him were handled well. Eggs and omelets. No one asks for the chicken’s point of view.
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(27 of 48)
Feb 5, 2003 6:48 AM
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I surprised by the civility and (gasp) selected agreement. ?
And about the personally, yes, no lie, I'm extremely good friends with his grandson. He studies philosophy in Berlin, and I hang with him on the weekends. Additionally, he hates even hearing about ww2, as most germans do. All he admits is that he regrets he never met his grandfather and doesn't take Allied claims that he was a war criminal as undisputable fact. He points out to me that the reason he was singled out was becasue of Malmedy, and his grandfather wasn't there, and never gave an order to perpetrate a malmedy. But of course after the war someone had to "hang" and why not that tall blond "super nazi" Peiper...
regards
Jan
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(28 of 48)
Feb 5, 2003 6:59 AM
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I surprised
--why?
by the civility
--do I sound like Atilla?
and (gasp)
--sit down, hold your head below your knees, Breath slowly.
selected agreement. ?
--I didn't comment on parts that I had no comment to make.
tall blond "super nazi" Peiper...
--Poster boys find that fame has a dark side.
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Posts:
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(29 of 48)
damn web based input pages
Feb 5, 2003 8:40 AM
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They seem to erase adverbs and letters every now and then. Or mabe I typ to fast...(see, it just did it again!)
I meant my last post in a friendly way. Just pleasantly surprised is all.
regards
Jan
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Posts:
1,309
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(30 of 48)
Feb 5, 2003 8:57 AM
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I remember Mike Bossy too.
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