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(3 of 20)
Feb 12, 2004 1:20 PM
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Thanks for your response. Any connection between your name and the Maccabees?
Best wishes.
the goal is to find truth through history
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(4 of 20)
Feb 12, 2004 2:14 PM
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Just out of respect,I left out a c because I don't have the ferver as they did
The Lord will raise up a standard
<><
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(5 of 20)
Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 13, 2004 2:55 AM
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Why should the book of Maccabees be in the old Testament? It added nothing to progressive revelation. This is the case for all the Apocrypha. There are accounts which are mentioned in the Old Testament that are not made part of Bible.
I'm quite sure that Jesus knew about the Maccabees. He also rejected the idea of being a political leader before the Jews came to the realization that he was the Messiah. Of course, it was known to God that the Jews would not accept him as as the Messiah.
It was unfortunate for the Jews who had a privileged position in the Roman Empire -- they could practice their own religion without interference -- and they still revolted anyway with disastrous results. This was also predicted by Christ.
So there are several reasons why the Pharisees who of roles during the time of Maccabees didn't want to say much about them. Their example was a disaster to the Jews of the time of Christ.
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(6 of 20)
Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 13, 2004 9:03 AM
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Why should the Book of Maccabees be in the Bible or Old Testament? The only reason I can think of is it was part of the Bible used by the earliest Christians. It is still used by Orthodox and Catholics and is considered, by them, as "Sacred Scripture".
I won't comment on the Theological value because that is strictly a matter of Faith.
You are a person of deep religious faith and you certainly stand up for it. I respect that!
Could I solicit your opinion? My question is: If it could be proven that Jesus did in deed have a political agenda...would that, in any way, detract from His legacy or any of His teachings? I would truly value your response.
My best to you.
the goal is to find truth through history
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(7 of 20)
Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 13, 2004 10:17 AM
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Informative post.
Just as we now know that the Synoptic Gospels were written long after the events they describe, and the writers cannot even be properly identified, we know that the story of Jesus to be found there is a dramatic invention to wrap up his teachings in a 'user friendly' manner.
The Gospels of matthew and Luke are an amalgam of two separate 'chruch' traditions based upon a combination of the Gospel of Mark and the "Q" Gospel 9from the Greek 'quelle', meaning source). The birth stroy of Jesus told in Mark and Luke was written by people who had no understanding of the historical and political circumstances of the times. An example is King Herod linked with Roman taxation under Quirinius, when Herod had been dead since 4 BCE, at least ten years before Quirinius came on the scene. Reference: G W Buchanan; Jesus: The King And His Kingdom.
It's odd that Josephus, Philo and Pliny the Elder were recording just about everything of note at the time, but there is very little or no reference to Jesus in any recognized third party documentation? At least, until the Knights Templar unearthed the scrolls hidden under Herod's Temple since the fall of Jerusalem, in 1120 AD, just two years after the formation of The Order Of The Poor Knights Of Christ. And I might add, formed to do nothing more than find these scrolls and the Treasure of the Jews hidden away, rather than ever protect a single pilgrim in the Holy Land. Interestingly enough, just 95 years later, the Magna Carta is signed by King John, based upon many of the contents of the scrolls. Scrolls which mirror the contents of the Qumranian scrolls, as well. I'm afraid the church was not thorough enough destroying everything she could to hide the truth after all?
Initially, the raising of Jonathan Maccabeus to the high preisthood is viewed as a good thing. But from the Scrolls discovered at Qumran, we now know that Jonathan was considered by the Hasidim (which you have graciously and succinctly identified) to be an outrageous choice who put politics before Yahweh.
With Jonathan's murder, his brother Simon became high priest, and took things veen further by declaring his family's hereditary right to the position of high priest. He consequently had this right set in bronze and set up in the Temple. Simon's illegitmate succession can be found in Psalm 110.
While the founder was called Mattathias, the term 'Maccabee' is actually used for his son Judas, with the lineage collectively called Hasmonaean. Josephus tells us this was because Mattathias's greatgrandfather's name was Hashmon. Simon is murdered, and eventually, after his son John Hyrcanus who ruled for thirty years, comes his son Aristobulus. He's the first to call himself King of the Jews, as well as High Priest. Do you see that Jesus was not the first messiah, but Aristobulus, knowing as we do that a messiah is a king in waiting, and this is as close as they come to fulfilling the prophecies most erroneously believe to have been 'still unfulfilled' in Jesus' time, while we canot argue that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies at all?
The Catholic Douai Bible gives full dexriptions of this period, but the King James does not. The last two books of the Douai aare the First and Second Books of Maccabees, totally absent from the Protestant Old Testament. Why? Because the Catholic church is attempting to paint the succession as legitimate! The Qumranians knew the truth which is why they, as the Essenes, were hunted down and murdered by the likes of Saul to keep the truth hidden away forever.
The King James had access to the texts discovered under Herod's Temple by the Knights Templar........ and told the Truth!
The Essenes came into being with the return of the Jews to Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity under the guidance of Zerubbabel and the Hasidim he led, only to see the Hasidim in subsequent generations leave Jerusalem around 187 BCE to 125 BCE. Zerubbabel is still practicing the secret king making rituals (of the Egyptians)which were a part of David's own king making rituals, shared with david by the Egyptians, because David was a Master Mason, as in Freemason!. Just as Jesus was. In fact, all the Essenes are Freemasons! Take a close look at the Damascus Document.
There's so much to be found........... which has been found already!
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(8 of 20)
Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 13, 2004 5:40 PM
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Very interesting response, thank you for your interest and information. I have a few questions and hope you will be so kind to answer.
I believe you made a typo--{The birth story of Jesus told in Mark and Luke was written by people who had no understanding of the historical and political circumstances of the times.}---you must mean Matthew not Mark.
I am not familiar with the scrolls hidden under Herod's temple discovered by the Knights Templar in 1120 CE. Would you give me your source for this?
--{The Catholic Douai Bible gives full dexriptions of this period, but the King James does not. The last two books of the Douai aare the First and Second Books of Maccabees, totally absent from the Protestant Old Testament. Why? Because the Catholic church is attempting to paint the succession as legitimate! The Qumranians knew the truth which is why they, as the Essenes, were hunted down and murdered by the likes of Saul to keep the truth hidden away forever.}---
Are you aware the Eastern Orthodox Churches, all of them, also include both books of Maccabees and a few of them include Maccabee 3&4?
How do you know the Essenes were hunted down by Saul (Paul?) and murdered? I have never heard of this and would greatly appreciate you giving me your sources.
Also if you would source reference the information on Free Masonry and Zerabbalel.
Many thanks in advance and thanks for your courteous and informative reply.
My best to you.
the goal is to find truth through history
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Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 13, 2004 7:29 PM
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One would think so, but in reality, it stands. And the reason has more to do with the redacting the church eventually drowned herself in to make all the pieces fit, and Matthew's version isn't as singular or really 'the first' as a result. My typos in spelling on that piece, are another matter entirely. 
M Smith: The Secret Gospel
D S Russel: The Method and Message of Jewish Apocalyptic
And of course, The Hiram Key, by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas.
The Essenes, whether in Carmel or Qumran (actually, they referred to this as Damascus, but not to be confused with Syria) beyond the shadow of a doubt, are and were Freemasons; a direct link to David, going back centuries back before David to the Egyptians. It's why his wife Bethsheba wrote Genesis, Exodus and Numbers, to give the protoHasidim who would later comprise the Essenes in their entirety, a history the Semites never really had exclusively to themselves, until she wrote the books. They are still based on Babylonian lore and Babylonian historical fact and other sources for which the 'Jews' owe their Egyptian cousins as well, much.......... as in an enormous amount beyond measure. Coincidentally, Bethsheba was writing at the very same time her husband David was composing his 'Psalms'.
What the Dead Sea Scrolls have uncovered are hundreds of versions of the (Old) Jewish Testament which actually predate the texts which were produced by Aaron ben Moses ben Asher in 1008 AD, by at least one thousand years. It's also why it wasn't until 1991 that the Israeli authorities finally granted permission to publish all of the scrolls, which until then, less than half of the 800 available had been released. We still haven't seen the most crucial detailing the falsehood of not only christianity in its' present form, but Judaism itself as it's supposedly existed for millenia. Though there are 'things' on the horizon........ ! The Truth will actually be refreshing, and might give Hope after all, but perhaps not to thsoe who prefer the Lie? Sadly, perhaps not?
There were so many scrolls of 'Old' Testaments hidden away in the caves at Qumran, that only one of them was translated into the Greek Septuagint, so there is no correct version of the Old Testament, after all.
None whatsoever.
Think God was writing a hundred different versions of the Bible to see which one They might like? :D
I suggest God didn't write the Bible, as the Catholic church has been well aware for the last sixteen hundred years. But it's most definitely why they've murdered billions to keep everyone quiet.
Welcome to our world of deceit. 
The Bible, cover to cover, was written by fallible men and women. The Old is any version you want to read among the hundreds available. The 'New' cloaked the real Passion of the Christ to purposefully distort the Message for the glory to themselves, and the immense Power and Control which it bought, still alive and well to this very day.
Pity. Pity it's taken the lives and the cultures of so many to prove a Lie, which is no more sustainable than the air.
Nice 'talking' with you.
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(10 of 20)
Feb 14, 2004 12:32 PM
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Are you here yet?
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(11 of 20)
Feb 14, 2004 1:43 PM
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get the old reading glasses and the baby down for a nap <crankpot>...i'll read while 'we' nap.
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Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 15, 2004 3:33 AM
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Again, I'll point out that the Jews reject that material as Apocrypha as do the Protestants. The others had the point to prove that they had the "right" to fiddle with the Word.
Yes, it would diminish Christ if it was shown he had a political agenda. It would make Him small and insignificant in world history. It would probably make and something like a Muhammad who was political. We can see what a mess the Islamic is in because this.
Christ will have a theocracy when he comes back to start the millennial kingdom. The Eastern Roman Empire tried to have a Christian kingdom without the presence of Christ, and perhaps this was the real reason it was destroyed.
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(13 of 20)
Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 15, 2004 12:40 PM
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jk-
thanks for leading me. it took a while but I caught up the best this brain could.
Your words-
>>There were so many scrolls of 'Old' Testaments hidden away in the caves at Qumran, that only one of them was translated into the Greek Septuagint, so there is no correct version of the Old Testament, after all.<<
just that alone should be enough but maybe the Lie feels better. 
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Oldboy, mind if I tackle this for a moment or two?
Feb 15, 2004 2:35 PM
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Jesus most definitely had not only a political, but a militaristic agenda as well, in addition to the 'spiritual'. Does it detract from his teachings or Message? Not at all. On the contrary, it adds to the discussion of why Jesus was even attempting such a feat singlehandedly, after the death of John the Baptist.
If we look at the construction of the Egyptian Empire, with its' king (and eventual pharoahs with the death of Seqnenre at which time no king ever succeeded to the throne again because Jospeh's brothers killed him attempting to steal the king making rituals from him Genesis 49:6, but pharaohs) as the physical embodiment of God Itself (or at the very least, a lesser god in full conjunction with the Godhead) then we begin to see that Jesus was attempting to set up both Pesher and Midrash (Twin Pillars) under the arch of Shalom. Once established, this strong foundation built of stone (as the Soul is built one stone, one good deed at a time) then, and onlt then could God's benevolence be called down to 'grace' and 'bless' a nation.
In all aspects of the praticality of the process, Jesus was attempting to set up this kingdom, which once established, called down God to bless the people.
It could not be accomplsihed without both the requisite Priestly and Kingly Messiahs which when united, were the very basis of the strength of the Empire, and all of it was united under the arch of Shalom; Peace in all its' glory.
John the Baptist and James the Righteous, Jesus's cousin and blood brother respectively, were the Twin Pillars until John's murder. With his murder, came the chaos remarked upon in the New Testament which culminated in Jesus stating that "you must hate your mother and father" because they supported James inheriting both the Priestly and Kingly Messiahships rather than Jesus. It makes sense when you consider James was alreay the High Priest and Head of the Jerusalem Church as the Head of the Essenes as well, and exactly why he was murdered on the steps of the Temple in Jerusalem in 64 AD, in full High Priest regalia, rather than in the Temple itself. This occurred one year after James and Paul's confrontation, and four years after Saul reinvents himself to become Paul, and after a span of twnety three 'lost years' in Saul's life, but we do knwo where he was: he was exterminating the Jerusalem Church which comprised the Essenes, the Mandaeans who were driven out of Mesopotamia in 37 AD. In the same year James is killed as a direct result of Paul's treachery, the Jewish Revolt begins at Masada. In 70 AD, we have the destruction of Qumran (the Damascus to which Saul was headed off in the New Testament rather than Syria) to include the destruction of Jerusalem itself and Herod's Temple by the Romans. It was Herod's Temple the Knights templar dug under to recover the Lost Scrolls which made them famous and wealthy beyond belief, because they were used as blackmail against the Catholic church. They went from a poor band of 'knights' to become the very bankers of Europe in no time at all. A a result of the huge amounts of money he owed to the Knights Templar which he could not repay, King Phillip of France ordered their summary executions in concert with the pope, and we have the martyrdom of the Knights Templar on Friday the 13th, as a result. It is the only reason Friday the thirteenth got its' notoriety as a day of doom: Friday the Thirteenth, October of 1307 AD. Jacques de Molay, the Grand Master of the Knights Templar was crucified in the exact manner as Jesus, and the Shroud of Turin was created from his blood and the ochre used in the Knights Templars' ceremonies.. In 1314, Jacques de Molay was burned at the stake. In 1357, the Shroud was presented to the world for the very first time; the Shroud of Jacques de Molay. If it was truly Jesus's, I'd have no problem with that explanation, but it is not.
I'll stop for now.
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(15 of 20)
Feb 16, 2004 7:36 AM
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I have not read the other two books you mentioned but have read the Hiram Key and many of what you posted is clearly taken from this book--especially the connection between Jesus, Freemasonry and Seqenenre. However, though I found the Hiram Key to be an interesting book, it nonetheless was almost purely speculative conjecture. That there were intriguing similarities between the wounds of Seqenenre and the Hiram Abiff Masonic story, it does not prove that the two were the same. Just because a church in Scotland had relief carvings that could be Corn, does not prove that the Knights Templar discovered America. Its interesting, but until I see more thorough scholarship on the subject, I simply don't buy it. There are too many leaps of the imagination in the Hiram Key and not enough academic documentation and study.
Now, as far as Jesus having a political agenda, I think that is well supported and from a purely historical perspective, is beyond a reasonable doubt from what I am familiar with.
"Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is."
Albert Camus
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(16 of 20)
Re: Jesus and the Maccabees.
Feb 16, 2004 8:02 AM
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+++oldboy says: Yet neither book is included in the Hebrew Bible and is barely mentioned in any rabbinical writings.+++
What does this prove? Neither does the Hebrew bible contain Tobit, which talks about someone that is blinded by sparrow dung, goes about with "Raphael", an angel traveling incognito, who lies about his name, and identity. Azarias (Raphael's assumed name) teaches that : the smoke derived from burning the heart and liver of a fish will repulse and/or exorcise demonic spirits, a fish's gall will heal blindness and that alms (good works) "purge away all sins".
I don't find the fact that 1 or 2 Maccabees is not in the Hebrew bible earthshaking since it is supposed to be part of the Appocrypha just as Tobit. The fact that the Jews do not acknowledge it is interesting just as they do not acknowledge Isaiah 53 (The Suffering Servant) that is in the Hebrew Bible.
Respectfully BeBe
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(17 of 20)
Feb 16, 2004 11:37 AM
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Thanks for your perspective, RRR.
I think 'The Hiram Key' goes quite a long way in explaining some of the key issues involved in the building of Empires in conjunction with the very building of the Soul; one Stone at a time. By the same token, I believe there are other studies which go even further, and as always, I believe in relying upon oneslef and what can be learned through the stillness we're capable of achieving while alive.
I was reminded last week that life is a rollercoaster, but I wouldn't have it any other way. The 'safe' course will obviously never be my Path in this life, this time around, and I go on from that premise since it's been my life since Day One.
What a ride!
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